Homestuck.XYZ 2.0

I think it's pretty obvious that opinions on the retcon are directly affected by how you read Homestuck. I was more of an archival reader, and the retcon had already happened. I got very little experience as a serial reader, and from what I understand serial readers on average took the retcon harder.

The retcon was never as painful for me personally because I had just finished Game Over and a lot of the character stories were still fresh in my mind. I think I sort of internalized the change as altering certain story beats but still leaving a variety of character arcs intact, just skewed. For example, Dave and Karkat got over their hangups about Terezi sooner, therefore became close friends sooner, therefore had more chance to develop into the Davekat we know now. Rose got over her addiction sooner, perhaps got with Kanaya sooner and had less strife. Vriska being there is evidently one of the largest changes, and I definitely see how it's frustrating to some how it appears she "fixes" everything.

I think for me, as an archival reader, I ended up coming to terms with the retcon because I mostly assumed the character development we'd seen still happened, just with some added parts (like Vriska being present) or certain dramas not lasting as long (Rose's addiction, Dave and Karkat squabbles).

But, I will say that I do occasionally get feelings of disappointment that we didn't get to SEE these things happen. In fact, when writing this I definitely got that twinge of disappointment. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is a small version of what the retcon may have felt like to others. You don't get to really SEE what happens, what precisely changes, and it feels like a lot of character moments are erased. I suppose I assumed the moments were still there, just altered or happening at sooner timeframes.

Anyways. Enough of that lengthy intro. I'm curious, what do other people think of the retcon? How has your experience of reading Homestuck shaped how you feel about it, other character arcs, etc? (Vriska's character development is another big one, retcon-wise, that I definitely see issues arise from)

So do you love it, hate it, feel indifferent about it? What would you have done differently if there was going to be a retcon? If not, what would happen instead of Game Over?

Personally, I liked the retcon. It showed that literally NOBODY is safe at any given moment. It showed just how brutal the game can end up being, and that was something I had never truly grasped until the entirety of reality was thrown on its head by Game Over.
I came to Homestuck well after it ended, so the retcon didn't effect me much. I mean, it's still the same people, with the same dynamics more or less, just with different events in the middle.
I really liked what the Game Over and the retcon showed, that being, at least in my view, that everything can go wrong at any given moment, and that nobody will be there to give them a hand when it does. Without Terezi and ever more so John, that would've been where it ended completely. That would have been the end under normal circumstances, and it wasn't given fanfare. It was treated like "yep, this happens sometimes, it's fine, there are an infinite number more of them" and I really liked seeing that.
To me it makes the existence of infinite different timelines in Homestuck feel like they're on a much larger scale. It made it feel like an infinite abyss, where things can go wrong at any moment in any way and you can't know until you find out, instead of like, a select few routes and nothing else.
I think I'm repeating myself so I'll cut to one last thing.
To me it made the game feel a lot more dangerous. It showed exactly how wrong things can go, as quickly as they can go.
Sburb has always been dangerous, but Game Over and the retcon was what really made me believe it.

The Retcon should've never happened. Either tone down the amount of 'wow everything is awful' going on, or find a way to stick through it. Magically poofing everything away in a 'LOL never happened' is a giant middle finger to the reader, and has been every single time it's happened in a piece of fiction.

So!

Retcon, Retcon, Retcon... I disliked it. Even as an archival reader who read it when Homestuck was already finished it seriously pissed me off. To go so far in the story for shit to get retconned to bring back one of my least favorite characters? It was actually incredibly dissapointing. Let alone the fact they gave Jade fans a fucking heart attack with putting her alone for THREE YEARS on a ship with no contact with other intelligent beings just because John had chosen to retcon things? That seems incredibly unfair to Jade... and than they just sweep that entire fucking thing under the rug and she kind of forgets about it?

It absolutely infuriated me as a reader honest to god, I really disliked it and what they did to the characters, it wasn't even a major retcon just 'let Vriska live but let all the other fucking trolls die like Nepeta, Equius, or Feferi who didn't really serve a larger purpose after death besides being dead. Maybe saving Feferi from Eridan and letting the group live and have Eridan get a redemption and the other trolls get some spotlight! But no it's just let Vriska live, the worst of all of them only behind Eridan. Cut short the fucking arc she had as a ghost where she legitimately grew and I came to like her.

Horrible decision. I really don't like it. It felt like an insult as a reader.

I dropped Homestuck for a very, VERY long time after Act 6 began with the Alpha Kids and it was revealed the first conflict they would have to deal with was a fucking Harem Anime Plot.

When I returned, I skipped almost all of Act 6 and only read bits and pieces of what led up to Game Over, but everything I read just felt like a slowly rotting funhouse mirror version of the characters I love. There are a lot of things that pissed me off but by the time Game Over reached me I was already on thin fucking ice watching John fuck with his new "retcon powers." And you better fucking believe I lost my GODDAMN MIND when, of all the things to bring back from the Murderstuck arc, of ALL the possible characters to revive, of ALL the possible moments in the timeline to change course and "F1X TH1S"?

They brought VRISKA BACK!?!?!?!

VRISKA!????

I found it, so. So infuriating. It was quite possibly the worst thing that I could have ever imagined to happen. I hate it.

Apologies for the rant, I just. It hurts me on a personal level, heh.

I went over this in a different thread so I will just pasta it in the nice spoiler box below. I will preface by saying I am (mostly) archival whose first upd8 was after Vriskagram but before Collide. I had the time between A7 and the Epilogues to stew on this and my opinion hasn't changed.
Naturally most of Homestuck's followups rely on using the bones of the retcon for the skeleton which means I don't like them by association, the exceptions being Hiveswap and Friendsim (so far).

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:37 pm

I went over this in a different thread so I will just pasta it in the nice spoiler box below. I will preface by saying I am (mostly) archival whose first upd8 was after Vriskagram but before Collide. I had the time between A7 and the Epilogues to stew on this and my opinion hasn't changed.

Spoiler

Show

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:15 am

It quite literally all falls apart with the Retcon, I hate everything after it. I hate Dave and Karkat's chemistry disappears as they become a couple. I hate Karezi died and because of all the damn setup in the early acts is too solid to deconstruct naturally it's having its grave constantly pissed on. I hate that Davesprite stops being a character. I hate that Vriska's character development stops and gets a hard reset to the point of being a huge god damn bitch again. I hate that Terezi bootlicks Vriska and nobody offers any resistance to her, not even Rose who I'd have thought would have major personality conflicts with her. I hate that everyone is so damn cruel to Jake for being a slow moron who can't read Jane for shit and Jane just gets a pie thrown in her face for being a bad person. I hate that Dave has an honest to god talk about how Bro was abusive when in the early acts this all was played as an actual damn joke and Davesprite never has the same damn hangups of him. AND ESPECIALLY:



I HATE WHAT THEY DID TO JADE.

Naturally most of Homestuck's followups rely on using the bones of the retcon for the skeleton which means I don't like them by association, the exceptions being Hiveswap and Friendsim (so far).

Spread more word on this whole Jade stuff, I was a Jade fan from when I started and by the end I felt so darn bad for Jade.

They like trainwrecked her character here, and while I actually liked Davepetasprite, them just shoving it under the rug for her to eternally forget was not fuckin okay?? Did her so dirty, let alone what came after in the Epilouges oml.

Leddy wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:41 pm

Spread more word on this whole Jade stuff, I was a Jade fan from when I started and by the end I felt so darn bad for Jade.

They like trainwrecked her character here, and while I actually liked Davepetasprite, them just shoving it under the rug for her to eternally forget was not fuckin okay?? Did her so dirty, let alone what came after in the Epilouges oml.

I think what's incredibly cruel about Davepetasprite is that they give Jade HOPE for Dave again with that kiss, and that hope never pays off for her in the followup. I thought for a long time that KarDaveJade was endgame and was perfectly okay with this (after all, Dave has TWO hands!) and Jade even had wonderful chemistry with Karkat in the early acts so it could work out! But uhhh, no? No it doesn't! Jade in Meat is shoved into a coma as AltCallie hijacks her dead body and once again misses out on life, as well as being incredibly fucking sad by looking for love in comfort with her incredibly loose sexual life to fill the hole of affection she so desperately needs! And in Candy? She not only ignores the chemistry between Dave and Karkat for her own pursuit of happiness (but personally I don't blame her) but she finally becomes fairly happy, but with an inevitably horrible ending where her husband just disappears forever! People act like she can just get over this but holy shit how deaf do you have to be to think Dave going missing won't drive her insane, won't affect her in a wholly negative way when being ABANDONED and ALONE is the WORST thing to do to her?!

He doesn't even say goodbye! What a fucking piece of shit!!!

This is also an interesting example of the kind of meta vs in character stuff that's been talked about on other threads.

Like how it's possibly "in character" for Terezi to make Vriska come back because Vriska being gone caused so much of her inner turmoil and a lot of her depression was based around how she felt like she'd made the wrong decision by killing her. Even when meta-wise it would've possibly made more sense to bring back a lot of the other characters and have stopped Eridan and Gamzee instead which would prevent the whole Murderstuck arc from even happening, thus getting more character building for all of them.

Although Terezi is arguably a mind player, and she arguably has been relatively selfless and for the greater good mindset wise until this point. But I suppose the argument could be that she ended up deciding she was going to do what her gut said, which was get back Vriska, because she couldn't trust her judgement anymore?? I dunno.

One thing I wish wish WISH we could have seen was like. More of Vriska in the retcon. Because I definitely feel like (Vriska) was such an interesting exploration of her character arc and the fact that that wasn't a part of the core narrative anymore was pretty sad. To be honest I hope we get something like that in HS2, now that Vriska seems to have realized why she was such a bully to (Vriska), which for the record seemed pretty obvious from the get-go that so much of (Vriska) made her feel insecure. I'm not sure how much this stems into Vriscourse so I may stop here.

Also yes!! Jade!!! God Jade really got done dirty during so much of the end of Homestuck. Jade's kind of always been in this weird plot-devicey limbo where she's gotten snippets of chances to be a person with her own arc but then the narrative sweeps her up again for it's own purpose. It happens in the Epilogues too. It's like she can't catch a break. But I suppose the meta/in-universe reasoning is because of her aspect.

arachnidsGrip wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:04 pm

Personally, I liked the retcon. It showed that literally NOBODY is safe at any given moment. It showed just how brutal the game can end up being, and that was something I had never truly grasped until the entirety of reality was thrown on its head by Game Over.
I came to Homestuck well after it ended, so the retcon didn't effect me much. I mean, it's still the same people, with the same dynamics more or less, just with different events in the middle.
I really liked what the Game Over and the retcon showed, that being, at least in my view, that everything can go wrong at any given moment, and that nobody will be there to give them a hand when it does. Without Terezi and ever more so John, that would've been where it ended completely. That would have been the end under normal circumstances, and it wasn't given fanfare. It was treated like "yep, this happens sometimes, it's fine, there are an infinite number more of them" and I really liked seeing that.
To me it makes the existence of infinite different timelines in Homestuck feel like they're on a much larger scale. It made it feel like an infinite abyss, where things can go wrong at any moment in any way and you can't know until you find out, instead of like, a select few routes and nothing else.
I think I'm repeating myself so I'll cut to one last thing.
To me it made the game feel a lot more dangerous. It showed exactly how wrong things can go, as quickly as they can go.
Sburb has always been dangerous, but Game Over and the retcon was what really made me believe it.

I've been thinking about it, and I realize now that I think I actually liked Game Over more than the actual Retcon, or really I like Game Over INSTEAD of the Retcon.. Like, basically my entire previous post in this thread is talking about the effects of Game Over, more than the retcon itself. And along with this further speculation, I've also come to the conclusion that I like and dislike the Retcon. I think it was a good way to display John's narrative powers and how far they can go, but I also think that a lot of stuff was overwritten when it didn't need to be, and the entirety of Game Over was basically just glossed over.
I like that they brought back Vriska. It's fitting for her I think, with her as a Thief of Light, to be back in the spotlight. Although I don't like that she was just. There. They could have spent all of the extra time that she was alive developing her further, but by the time [S] Collide rolls around, she's still just her. I feel like it was just wasted potential, honestly.
Ultimately I feel like a lot of the hatred towards the Retcon could have been avoided had it been handled differently and/or better. Although I also think that there's an inherent amount of hatred the Retcon's going to get simply because many people consider it to be a pretty cheap narrative device. (I haven't decided whether I agree or not)
But I don't know, I just thought I'd share my thoughts.

arachnidsGrip wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:55 pm

I like that they brought back Vriska. It's fitting for her I think, with her as a Thief of Light, to be back in the spotlight. Although I don't like that she was just. There. They could have spent all of the extra time that she was alive developing her further, but by the time [S] Collide rolls around, she's still just her. I feel like it was just wasted potential, honestly.
Ultimately I feel like a lot of the hatred towards the Retcon could have been avoided had it been handled differently and/or better. Although I also think that there's an inherent amount of hatred the Retcon's going to get simply because many people consider it to be a pretty cheap narrative device. (I haven't decided whether I agree or not)
But I don't know, I just thought I'd share my thoughts.

I think the retcon could work if it wasn't so picky about who gets offscreen development versus who doesn't. Vriska is an amazing example of that, she doesn't feel as if she changed at all, or made a concerted effort to, and that strikes me as very strange! Vriska's last online talk was with John where she and he hashed out a lot of her problems with the expectations of being the troll she is and why she feels like she needs to do things. She reveals her intentions to Terezi and forces the FL1P, where Terezi grimly determines she HAS to kill Vriska to save the timeline and everyone. Vriska then, at that moment, has John himself appear before her and sock her right in her stupid face. John. The guy whom she was talking to about having to do things to make stuff right and 8e a hero so people might like her again. He shows up and specifically prevents her from doing the thing Terezi tells her NOT to do.

And yet she maintains her arrogant attitude and Terezi is the one who receives the 'I'm wrong' complex? Shouldn't both of them have been experiencing that? If Vriska rubbed that in Terezi's face why wouldn't Terezi snipe back that John didn't punch her to prevent the bad thing from happening and Vriska's choice was also a huge fuck up?

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:03 pm

Vriska's last online talk was with John where she and he hashed out a lot of her problems with the expectations of being the troll she is and why she feels like she needs to do things. She reveals her intentions to Terezi and forces the FL1P, where Terezi grimly determines she HAS to kill Vriska to save the timeline and everyone.

Oh my god. This is a PERFECT example too of things that the retcon could have worked in. I completely forgot that Vriska's last convo was with John before that whole FL1P debacle. It had been so long since that point in the story and we just jumped back to this part.

The stuff you described would have actually been really perfect as an addition.

I remember people also complained about how Terezi seemed pretty meek and let Vriska walk all over her and just agreed blindly (har har) with her for the most part during that final scene on the lilypad or whatever. Although I'd argue it's less of a power imbalance (I remember some people argued this was an abusive relationship but I don't see that as much) and more the fact that neither of them is actually being open about their feelings which we see come to the surface later in Terezi's message to Vriska and Vriska talking in the Epilogues.

Wing wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:14 pm

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:03 pm

Vriska's last online talk was with John where she and he hashed out a lot of her problems with the expectations of being the troll she is and why she feels like she needs to do things. She reveals her intentions to Terezi and forces the FL1P, where Terezi grimly determines she HAS to kill Vriska to save the timeline and everyone.

Oh my god. This is a PERFECT example too of things that the retcon could have worked in. I completely forgot that Vriska's last convo was with John before that whole FL1P debacle. It had been so long since that point in the story and we just jumped back to this part.

I like how they just kind of ignored how John, who Vriska just emotionally vented to, something she almost NEVER does, showed up all of a sudden, punched Vriska in the face, and then vanished.

rookie1978 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:22 pm

The Retcon should've never happened. Either tone down the amount of 'wow everything is awful' going on, or find a way to stick through it. Magically poofing everything away in a 'LOL never happened' is a giant middle finger to the reader, and has been every single time it's happened in a piece of fiction.

I agree with this in principle, but in the instance of Homestuck I actually kinda liked it because it was entertaining to watch play out--and see an heir of breath truly encapsulate their aspect in an ultimate sense.

That said, The moment it became; "BRING VRISKA BACK TO LIFE THAT WILL FIX EVERYTHING" was the moment I groaned audibly and rolled my eyes so hard I sent Hussie the bill for corrective surgery.

The lead-up to the retcon? Pretty good, pretty hilarious, absolutely amazing use of meta features on the site itself, and while the oil was kind of a re-tread of the arm stuff but just as great, and the usage of Pipeorgankind was just amazing. The Vriska reveal and everything after that? No thanks homie, I'm out.

As much as I unabashedly love Vriska despite her being horrible a lot of the time I definitely think showing how she managed to actually "fix" everything would be... Like. Nice.

Instead of this assumed fix-all.

I mean, I pretty much have guesses of approximately what happened that changed the timeline, along with the other changes that Terezi had John make. Stuff we initially maybe think is insignificant, like John does, but alas it isn't. Like the butterfly effect.

But I definitely see how after all of this build up, there's a sudden magic fix-it button. When, as usual, people would prefer seeing actual development. Show vs. tell.

It's nice seeing other people talking about this, though. I may be sorta rambling here but I haven't gotten a chance to properly discuss retcon stuff with fans of different perspectives like this. It's appreciated.

Mentok Thief of Mind wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:33 pm

rookie1978 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:22 pm

The Retcon should've never happened. Either tone down the amount of 'wow everything is awful' going on, or find a way to stick through it. Magically poofing everything away in a 'LOL never happened' is a giant middle finger to the reader, and has been every single time it's happened in a piece of fiction.

I agree with this in principle, but in the instance of Homestuck I actually kinda liked it because it was entertaining to watch play out--and see an heir of breath truly encapsulate their aspect in an ultimate sense.

The really weird thing is we already had the whole idea of being alien to the surroundings and a doomed future where only one of the characters we really follow succeeds on changing the past and the bad future to follow. We didn't follow Davesprite's timeline for the amount of time his own doomed timeline his path went down, we had a very nice abbreviated instance where we see this Dave cope with the circumstances of his shitty timeline and jump back to fix it, thereby placing him in a situation where the Rose he knew is no longer Rose, but on the flipside both John and Jade are alive again as he last remembered them to be. By the merit of Retcon, everything AFTER FL1P is the doomed timeline not unlike Davesprites, but we're forced to experience every grueling detail before John hops back and 'fixes' what went wrong.

But instead of starting from that point we jump forward again and miss a lot of crucial character moments, which displaces us worst than Davesprite by a significant amount! It would be like if Davesprite hopped backwards, 'fixed' something, and then suddenly was on the 3 year ship with Jade being part dog and John inexplicably pissed off at him by something he doesn't remember!

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:42 pm

But instead of starting from that point we jump forward again and miss a lot of crucial character moments, which displaces us worst than Davesprite by a significant amount! It would be like if Davesprite hopped backwards, 'fixed' something, and then suddenly was on the 3 year ship with Jade being part dog and John inexplicably pissed off at him by something he doesn't remember!

This is a very good comparison. Just wanted to say that. At least, it helps me understand.

Grabage.

It made my boi John get depressed. And also brought Vriska back to life. And also erased most of the character developments we already got. And also brought Vriska back to life. And also made the GO timeline feel like a joke. And also brought Vriska back to life.
So yeah, I didnt really like all the consequences it had; tho the retconing itself was pretty funny to read (I read this on April this year, so everything was already in place) and it was a lot of fun finally seeing why the paswords were there.