Forms of narrative power and who may or may not have them.

[thorondraco]

A rather big question i have right now, oddly after the the last Pesterquest, is if there are people who somehow have narrative powers that we don't know about, or are even hiding their own powers for the moment until they can be most effective.

At this point we have five confirmed people with Narrative powers, if we include the pesterquest (which we might as well considering the whole Canon discussion. And it feels like the writers may do that themselves). Dirk, Alt Calliope, John, Hussie in universe, and the Mspa reader.

This provides three apparrent forms of this influence. Hussie's influence is that of an author, who is a almost fully detached entity to the story. It isn't until he enters paradox space at some unknown point where he ends up vulnerable to the peeps within, fooled by his own creation. When he dies it seems implied that his powers over the story diminish. Probably to prevent him from changin the story and preventing him from writing Lord english's defeat.

With Dirk and Alt Calliope we have two beings who are entities within the universe and story who have somehow gained power over reality. The Ultimate Self control we will call it here. Their powers seem to function similarly to Hussie's. They can create the story basically, panels and prose. I think its also implied that they can simply observe how things are progressing and simply recant the events. Unlike Hussie, they are not detached entities and seem to have an actual range to their powers, albeit once they get a 'grasp' on someone they can direct them even outside of this 'range'.
In addition they are also limited to Aspect powers and what they entail. Calliope controls the mood and can conduct thought, but doesn't seem able to dig deeper into their psyche. She can also cause events to happen around characters too, falling, cramped limbs. Dirk is incapable of controlling the space but is more adept at controlling the people. However he is limited when it comes to the Void Aspect. A third weakness out of all of them is that it seems like there are different levels to this power as Calliope can dumb down Dirk's presence. We don't know if its because of the power she has after consuming the green sun and the furthest ring, or maybe she is hijacking Jade's own potential to influence the narrative and double teaming Dirk with it. The ultimate self may or may not give the individual a lot of combat potential. Leaning on it does but even then, Black hole powers kinda trump that. Probably green sun powers too.

The Reader and John retcons are functionally like narrative powers but, it seems in practice, Are fundamentally different. Outside of teleporting throughout a narrative, Neither John nor the Reader 'narrate'. They generate cause and effect and seemingly force others to narrate and draw for them. This power can overwrite reality, which presumably is true for other narrative powers, but unlike Either an author or the ultimate self, they don't have Awareness of the narrative. They might have more awareness of some aspects of reality but not the Story. They are not narrators. We don't know what happens when they are out of a narrative though. In Candy john is unable to teleport anymore, at least not into events that exist in the the candy timeline alone, but Vriska seems able to detect that REtcon might still be inside of john, but manifesting differently.
It could be that retcon power is in a way the same as Narrative power, but without the awareness of the Ultimate self. It seems formless and vague and drawing from desire rather than conscious creation.More so it seems reliant on the person holding the power to make direct actions or empower others to do that for them. Vriska could have been empowered with the retcon magic to basically steal the spotlight and change the course of the narrative.
Maybe all of this power comes from the juju, or maybe the only thing the juju provides is the ability to transport throughout the narrative, and the power to change things is the power of the Ultimate self manifested.

Retcon powers seem to have a strict limitation. Even if the power to influence shit remains, the teleportation powers, the biggest advantage of the power, don't seem to function outside the original canon space. the Mspa reader attempts to return to the Hiveswap narrative space but fails repeatedly. Some dialogue implies may indirectly hint that its because the Reader is outside of the story. In fact technically speaking, he left Hiveswap space the moment he traveled to Doc scratch's apartment. And when he attempted to return before retcon powers and shit, he got stuck in the void.

All narrative powers, seemingly, are dangerous if misused. Either enforcing will over other players or literally damaging the integrity of reality.The Reader is currently wrecking paradox space and something is trying to keep things together. John inaction is said to have almost caused paradox space to fall apart too as him not going after Caliborn risked paradox. Presumably the Candy timeline is dangerous cause it is a literally paradox cause it is as 'equally canon as the meat'. And presumably if Hussie created events that are too out there, it might have caused the story to collapse too. Essentially Plot holes cause instability though we don't know if they are only unique to Retcon powers.

A big, big question remains. Are there others who hold these powers too, secretly? Did Lord English have them? I have ideas but this post is WAY too long already so i'll save em for later.

[VASKA]

I think when looking at John and Reader, it's better to think of the retcon powers as creating a new alpha timeline without destroying the first. We see in Terezi: Remember that Game Over Terezi continued to exist for some time after John retconned the timeline, and left behind a ghost. Meat also represents a timeline where John began a retcon, while Candy didn't, which as we can see created two distinct but equally "not-doomed" timelines. With that in mind, I don't think we can say John and Reader have narrative powers, just a rare form of time travel, and trying to dig out narrative ability where it's plainly not there is kind of a bladekind eyewear-esque level of theorizing.

[thorondraco]

I think when looking at John and Reader, it's better to think of the retcon powers as creating a new alpha timeline without destroying the first. We see in Terezi: Remember that Game Over Terezi continued to exist for some time after John retconned the timeline, and left behind a ghost. Meat also represents a timeline where John began a retcon, while Candy didn't, which as we can see created two distinct but equally "not-doomed" timelines. With that in mind, I don't think we can say John and Reader have narrative powers, just a rare form of time travel, and trying to dig out narrative ability where it's plainly not there is kind of a bladekind eyewear-esque level of theorizing.

From what we can tell narrative power is in part the power to determine if something is part of the story. Applying the three pillars, let us say that Narrative powers allow one to determine what is the Truth of reality.
So if Retcon powers allow an individual to overwrite reality then it can be said it thus has that Authority like power.

So basically retcon generated two distinctly not doomed timelines meaning it can somehow give the user the power to state both timelines are True. If it isn't a form of narrative power and not tied into it, then we are getting inconsistent.

[thorondraco]

I think when looking at John and Reader, it's better to think of the retcon powers as creating a new alpha timeline without destroying the first. We see in Terezi: Remember that Game Over Terezi continued to exist for some time after John retconned the timeline, and left behind a ghost. Meat also represents a timeline where John began a retcon, while Candy didn't, which as we can see created two distinct but equally "not-doomed" timelines. With that in mind, I don't think we can say John and Reader have narrative powers, just a rare form of time travel, and trying to dig out narrative ability where it's plainly not there is kind of a bladekind eyewear-esque level of theorizing.

Just saying that its more consistent to, at this time, think of it as another form of Narrative power than something else.

Also considering the reader is literally shattering paradox space right now?

[Bahinchut]

I've heard people argue that Jack Noir has a degree of narrative power, somewhere above the reader perhaps, but I was never really convinced by it. The most compelling argument I've heard to date is that Spades Slick wills his robot eye into being real, but be realistic. More probably, it was a half-assed meta joke conjured by whatever ghost writer was in charge of the parts preceding Collide

I think intelligence in Homestuck is usually displayed with subtle nods at meta knowledge. Sollux, Jack and Rose, for example, both recieve commands more literally than any other characters. Rose can "hear" the White Queen, Sollux interperates CD's commands as voices in his head and Jack often has a back and forth with whatever command he was given, i.e. "You know your own name. And that damn well ain't your name."

Of course I'm writing this from the perspective of someone who doesn't really read or play the post-homestuck stuff, so as far as I'm concerned the only character who ever recieved any narrative powers was Caliborn. I don't even really count John, because the retcon powers aren't exactly narrative powers any more than any character's individual agency is a narrative power. Like you said, he isn't actually aware of the narrative, so his influence on the narrative is essentially that of any other even slightly active protagonist. In fact, I'd argue that Terezi had more narrative power than John, because she's the one who actually orchestrated the retcon. John essentially just time traveled Back to the Future style.

A big, big question remains. Are there others who hold these powers too, secretly? Did Lord English have them?

I thought this was a given. It might be the one most obligatory example of narrative powers in the entire comic. Caliborn, and by extension English, takes over the narrative directly. He changes the house style of the MSPA website, reimagines the narrative in his own voice, down to the very colour. Then, when he becomes Lord English, he manipulates the entire universe in order to narratively justify his own existence.

Adding to that, are Alt Calliope's narrative powers shown in the epilogues? I don't remember reading anything that would suggest she has any, besides her parallels to Lord English and the obvious conductor symbolism.

[VASKA]

Adding to that, are Alt Calliope's narrative powers shown in the epilogues? I don't remember reading anything that would suggest she has any, besides her parallels to Lord English and the obvious conductor symbolism.

Alt Calliope has a massive exposition dump where she explains her level of control over the narrative, wrestles with Dirk for narrative control during his (apparent) attempt on Jake's life, and personally steps in to ensure teen Jade's suicide by throwing herself into the black hole.

[thorondraco]

I've heard people argue that Jack Noir has a degree of narrative power, somewhere above the reader perhaps, but I was never really convinced by it. The most compelling argument I've heard to date is that Spades Slick wills his robot eye into being real, but be realistic. More probably, it was a half-assed meta joke conjured by whatever ghost writer was in charge of the parts preceding Collide

I think intelligence in Homestuck is usually displayed with subtle nods at meta knowledge. Sollux, Jack and Rose, for example, both recieve commands more literally than any other characters. Rose can "hear" the White Queen, Sollux interperates CD's commands as voices in his head and Jack often has a back and forth with whatever command he was given, i.e. "You know your own name. And that damn well ain't your name."

Of course I'm writing this from the perspective of someone who doesn't really read or play the post-homestuck stuff, so as far as I'm concerned the only character who ever recieved any narrative powers was Caliborn. I don't even really count John, because the retcon powers aren't exactly narrative powers any more than any character's individual agency is a narrative power. Like you said, he isn't actually aware of the narrative, so his influence on the narrative is essentially that of any other even slightly active protagonist. In fact, I'd argue that Terezi had more narrative power than John, because she's the one who actually orchestrated the retcon. John essentially just time traveled Back to the Future style.

A big, big question remains. Are there others who hold these powers too, secretly? Did Lord English have them?

I thought this was a given. It might be the one most obligatory example of narrative powers in the entire comic. Caliborn, and by extension English, takes over the narrative directly. He changes the house style of the MSPA website, reimagines the narrative in his own voice, down to the very colour. Then, when he becomes Lord English, he manipulates the entire universe in order to narratively justify his own existence.

Adding to that, are Alt Calliope's narrative powers shown in the epilogues? I don't remember reading anything that would suggest she has any, besides her parallels to Lord English and the obvious conductor symbolism.

Could be that Dersites can bend the narrative in small ways because of their connection to the furthest ring. But never enough to break reality.

Also at this point its kinda obvious that the Retcon powers are some kinda narrative power. Three pillars of canon/reality thing popped up in the peilogues as an explanation of how paradox space defines doomed and alpha timelines. Essentially, relevance, and truth.
Essentially is how important it is to canon/alphatimeline/reality. Relevance is if we need to see and learn about it, and that does apply to Essential timelines like Beforus. Don't need to know anyhting about it, it just needs to exist.

Truth is the big boi of this trio cause it is the primary definer of doomed and alpha timelines. If its true to the alpha then its true period. Doomed timelines are basically timeline that are not True to the alpha and they fade. So basically anything that can define a timeline as True is narrative powers.

[Bahinchut]

Also at this point its kinda obvious that the Retcon powers are some kinda narrative power. Three pillars of canon/reality thing popped up in the peilogues as an explanation of how paradox space defines doomed and alpha timelines. Essentially, relevance, and truth.
Essentially is how important it is to canon/alphatimeline/reality. Relevance is if we need to see and learn about it, and that does apply to Essential timelines like Beforus. Don't need to know anyhting about it, it just needs to exist.

Truth is the big boi of this trio cause it is the primary definer of doomed and alpha timelines. If its true to the alpha then its true period. Doomed timelines are basically timeline that are not True to the alpha and they fade. So basically anything that can define a timeline as True is narrative powers.

Fair, but that interpretation is very much dependant on reading and giving a fuck about the epilogues.

[VASKA]

I dont think alpha and canon timelines can be used interchangeably. take for example the timeline where John died by meeting his denizen early: this was the first mention and template for doomed timelines, but it was still canon, being essential, true, and relevant, while existing within the confines of the comic. any way you slice it, thats a canon doomed timeline.

[thorondraco]

Also at this point its kinda obvious that the Retcon powers are some kinda narrative power. Three pillars of canon/reality thing popped up in the peilogues as an explanation of how paradox space defines doomed and alpha timelines. Essentially, relevance, and truth.
Essentially is how important it is to canon/alphatimeline/reality. Relevance is if we need to see and learn about it, and that does apply to Essential timelines like Beforus. Don't need to know anyhting about it, it just needs to exist.

Truth is the big boi of this trio cause it is the primary definer of doomed and alpha timelines. If its true to the alpha then its true period. Doomed timelines are basically timeline that are not True to the alpha and they fade. So basically anything that can define a timeline as True is narrative powers.

Fair, but that interpretation is very much dependant on reading and giving a fuck about the epilogues.

.... I am sorry but even if you don't care about the epilogues it is information that kinda gives context to a major feature of paradox space's mechanics.

[thorondraco]

I dont think alpha and canon timelines can be used interchangeably. take for example the timeline where John died by meeting his denizen early: this was the first mention and template for doomed timelines, but it was still canon, being essential, true, and relevant, while existing within the confines of the comic. any way you slice it, thats a canon doomed timeline.

Its probably why there are three pillars. A timeline can have both relevance and essentilaity, but without truth its only purpose is to feed into the alpha timeline, sustain it. The John's death timeline is meant to do just that, as does the many doomed timelines of the Troll sessions.

[rookie1978]

caliborn took the narration over before dirk and i dont even think he 100% realized what he was doing

[calamityCons]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

[rookie1978]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

Isn't Scratch just part of Lord English, aka Cali?

[calamityCons]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

Isn't Scratch just part of Lord English, aka Cali?

By that reasoning we could argue that Dirk is also part of Lord English and that's where he gets his power. Is narrative power only valid if done by a Cherub? Why?

[thorondraco]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

Isn't Scratch just part of Lord English, aka Cali?

He is actually seen as distinct to lord english. Including in terms of the unconditional immortality cause, well, he literally has to die for lord english to come into being through his corpse. We don't know exactly what part of scratch dies in order for him to be lord english though. We don't know what part of doc scratch dies for lord english to come into being though. He is also one who states that he is vastly weaker to lord english. Meaning the lord english aspect of his being is greatly repressed.

I am wondering if it even counts when someone who is neither an ultimate self or a author narrates. We don't know what exactly is the mechanism that allows narrative control to begin with. The elements authors, the ultimate self and retcon powers share. Hussie still controls the narrative somewhat in death, a waning power though it was. Though maybe the story maker can give people temporary power over the narrative?

A big question is if Lord english had a narrative power, perhaps the ultimate self power? Or maybe he had the illusion of one cause the timeline was built towards favoring him as his existence brings about stuff like the green sun, dream bubbles, and whatnot. Its really hard to tell with him.

Then again that is the scary part of narrative powers, the things you do can appear like they were always meant to be to outsiders. This could easily apply to lord english and ensuring his victory. Though presumably it was ultimate self powers at work as he seemed to be limited to where he could go and that limits his powers. Its also possible his awareness of narrative was crippled because Caliborn, his main component, didn't die or had many if any alternate selves.

[thorondraco]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

Isn't Scratch just part of Lord English, aka Cali?

Basically what i mean cause i kinda ramble on a bit.

We don't know if just being able to narrate a story is enough to have narrative powers. And Lord english having power to create or change the narrative is a very larger question mark indeed. With these kind powers you could make it seem like an event was always going to happen. The entirety of Hussie's death could have been a trap set by English rather than something destined to happen, but because of these powers, it makes it seem like it was destined to happen.
i think its very likely he could have had ultimate self powers or similar, but he was too power minded to utilize them properly. Not having a knowledge base enough to use them. Maybe even too insane to use them cause of having four souls bound together.

that might actually explain a few things. Conditional mortality and Gamzee's inability to die, use of narrative powers in very blatant ways.

In terms of characters that could secretly have narrative powers? MY bets are on Aranea and Aradia. Aranea's spiel before she attacked the session really, really sounded like the same hting that Alt Calliope spouted, and Aranea had both an unnerving awareness of what everyone was thinking and access to strange knowledge, not to mention her ability to control peoples' minds were monstrously strong.

Aradia checks out, especially after the pesterquest run, cause she likely has endured eons of life and basically she no longer had a part to play in the main story, and chose to stay in the void rather than be within the boundaries of paradox space. There is even reason to belive that she knew how to change the timeline and that she coaxed the acquisition of retcon powers.
Course with ARanea she is a ghost without a physical body to lose, but ARadia is still alive so it leaves the question of how her body could survive the awakening.

Think like Jade, she probably retains aspects of the sprite body she gained. She doesn't have frog but she was in a similar circumstance to Jade in terms of ghostselves and dreamselves and sprites and such.

[JakeMorph]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

i 100% agree with you here and i'll repeat what i said in the thread this conversation first came up in: what makes the author-character so fascinating is that it's literally impossible to tell whether he merely narrates what happens in front of him or whether he literally manifests events into being by stating them. is hussie's author avatar just writing a story he already knows, or is he creating the story from within the story? these questions apply equally to Scratch.

even if Scratch isn't literally causing the events of the [o]ntermission, what we do know for sure about him is that he has been around since the dawn of Alternia, and has been shaping Alternian history for the purpose of telling a specific story during that time. again, beg the question: what's the difference between a character who makes a story and then tells it, and a character who literally creates a story by telling it? andrew even refers to Scratch's ancestor stories as his 'ancestor fanfiction', which totally makes sense with the context that the ancestors are basically just the Beforan trolls living out their lives a second time, this time dictated by Scratch's will and plans.

(going back to the [o] segment also reminded me about the ==> candies that Scratch kept around his penthouse which i had totally forgotten about and are definitely one of Homestuck's more fun metaconcept jokes)

I've heard people argue that Jack Noir has a degree of narrative power, somewhere above the reader perhaps, but I was never really convinced by it. The most compelling argument I've heard to date is that Spades Slick wills his robot eye into being real, but be realistic. More probably, it was a half-assed meta joke conjured by whatever ghost writer was in charge of the parts preceding Collide

i don't know about the robot eye gag, but Jack Noir's proximity to the fourth wall is supported by andrew's book commentary:

Villains in Homestuck tend to be meta-villains. That is, they exist much closer to the surface of the story's meta-bubble, and often interact with the way it's told. For instance, Jack Noir is the original owner of the 4th wall. [...] As a universal bureaucratic game construct, he can keep tabs on everything going on in the session, including just outside the story.
[...]
Though Jack Noir is a meta-villain, there are limits to this, possibly tied to his personality. It could be the scope of his ambition never includes messing with the story itself. His desire for power lies entirely within fictional parameters. Later, there are much more flagrant meta-villains, in Doc Scratch and Lord English. They live on the surface of the meta-bubble, and at times badly puncture it. All iterations of Lord English in total basically represent the ultimate meta-villain. Though it takes a very long time for this to become apparent, and for it to be revealed exactly what this means.

i think the conceit of this thread kind of glosses over the fact that a majority of characters in Homestuck exist on some kind of meta level, and a lot of the time, as andrew suggests in the above quote, whether the characters actually 'puncture the meta-bubble' depends largely on their intent. the trolls, for example, are reader-narrators of Homestuck, by virtue of watching the kids go about their business and interacting with that narrative through Trollian: but most of them aren't interested in actually taking control of that narrative. Vriska comes close, by using her powers to influence characters at key points in order to tell the story she wants to tell about Bec Noir. the exiles are perhaps a more blatant example of this: though existing within the story, they literally take the place of the reader-narrator using the command stations to provide the link text on every other page.

[thorondraco]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

i 100% agree with you here and i'll repeat what i said in the thread this conversation first came up in: what makes the author-character so fascinating is that it's literally impossible to tell whether he merely narrates what happens in front of him or whether he literally manifests events into being by stating them. is hussie's author avatar just writing a story he already knows, or is he creating the story from within the story? these questions apply equally to Scratch.

even if Scratch isn't literally causing the events of the [o]ntermission, what we do know for sure about him is that he has been around since the dawn of Alternia, and has been shaping Alternian history for the purpose of telling a specific story during that time. again, beg the question: what's the difference between a character who makes a story and then tells it, and a character who literally creates a story by telling it? andrew even refers to Scratch's ancestor stories as his 'ancestor fanfiction', which totally makes sense with the context that the ancestors are basically just the Beforan trolls living out their lives a second time, this time dictated by Scratch's will and plans.

(going back to the [o] segment also reminded me about the ==> candies that Scratch kept around his penthouse which i had totally forgotten about and are definitely one of Homestuck's more fun metaconcept jokes)

I've heard people argue that Jack Noir has a degree of narrative power, somewhere above the reader perhaps, but I was never really convinced by it. The most compelling argument I've heard to date is that Spades Slick wills his robot eye into being real, but be realistic. More probably, it was a half-assed meta joke conjured by whatever ghost writer was in charge of the parts preceding Collide

i don't know about the robot eye gag, but Jack Noir's proximity to the fourth wall is supported by andrew's book commentary:

Villains in Homestuck tend to be meta-villains. That is, they exist much closer to the surface of the story's meta-bubble, and often interact with the way it's told. For instance, Jack Noir is the original owner of the 4th wall. [...] As a universal bureaucratic game construct, he can keep tabs on everything going on in the session, including just outside the story.
[...]
Though Jack Noir is a meta-villain, there are limits to this, possibly tied to his personality. It could be the scope of his ambition never includes messing with the story itself. His desire for power lies entirely within fictional parameters. Later, there are much more flagrant meta-villains, in Doc Scratch and Lord English. They live on the surface of the meta-bubble, and at times badly puncture it. All iterations of Lord English in total basically represent the ultimate meta-villain. Though it takes a very long time for this to become apparent, and for it to be revealed exactly what this means.

i think the conceit of this thread kind of glosses over the fact that a majority of characters in Homestuck exist on some kind of meta level, and a lot of the time, as andrew suggests in the above quote, whether the characters actually 'puncture the meta-bubble' depends largely on their intent. the trolls, for example, are reader-narrators of Homestuck, by virtue of watching the kids go about their business and interacting with that narrative through Trollian: but most of them aren't interested in actually taking control of that narrative. Vriska comes close, by using her powers to influence characters at key points in order to tell the story she wants to tell about Bec Noir. the exiles are perhaps a more blatant example of this: though existing within the story, they literally take the place of the reader-narrator using the command stations to provide the link text on every other page.

Perhaps the Meta Bubble is a literal thing in this case. Though what it means is in question. Do they mean Canon? Or is it still metaphorical and we are talking about awareness of the Story like nature of their universe. Both a work of fiction and a universe at once. Cause both Doc and Lord english seem aware of the story nature of their reality, while Jack has no more awareness than John does even with retcon powers.
That is the kind of story homestuck is, kinda unvierse. the Meta bubble could literally mean anyhting.


I think the primary issue i have with the idea Doc scratch had influence over the narrative, is that we don't know what gives one influence... Let's face it, Caliborn had no actual influence himself. Zilch. He was being manipulated by hussie. He was given special treatment by hussie. Doc scratch is another story cause, unlike caliborn, he has Narrative awareness. But how much does that even matter if you don't have whatever Quality Hussie, the retcon users and the other ultimate selfs have?
As a middle ground let us say that one can have either the power or the awareness but both are incomplete and awareness gives way to the actual power itself. That kinds fits actually. Doc literally becomes a puppet in Hussie's presence, and when John retcons over Vriska's death, it was right in the middle of him Narrating Vriska's death. But awareness can allow one to learn certain loopholes and function like a narrator, but it is no replacement from the true power.

LEt us say someone with awareness can make tiny changes to the narrative, but can't generate a narrative themselves. They don't have that influence.

OOOH this might be a good explanation to it. Basically Q from star trek is similar to this concept, except the reality manipulation is story based rather than snapping his fingers. However, despite Q's awareness of reality's mechanics, his powers OVER reality are technologically based and without the technology he has no actual influence.
So maybe Doc scrathc has the knowledge but not the metaphorical 'technology'. But it allows him to find loopholes and ultimately trap hussie.

[thorondraco]

And I will continue to assert that the first character to ever take over the narrative and manipulate and force shit to happen, is Doc Scratch. At this point though it's pretty clear I'm the only one really giving him credit where his is due because Caliborn is touted as The First and I disagree that Doc Scratch only "observes" the story.

i 100% agree with you here and i'll repeat what i said in the thread this conversation first came up in: what makes the author-character so fascinating is that it's literally impossible to tell whether he merely narrates what happens in front of him or whether he literally manifests events into being by stating them. is hussie's author avatar just writing a story he already knows, or is he creating the story from within the story? these questions apply equally to Scratch.

even if Scratch isn't literally causing the events of the [o]ntermission, what we do know for sure about him is that he has been around since the dawn of Alternia, and has been shaping Alternian history for the purpose of telling a specific story during that time. again, beg the question: what's the difference between a character who makes a story and then tells it, and a character who literally creates a story by telling it? andrew even refers to Scratch's ancestor stories as his 'ancestor fanfiction', which totally makes sense with the context that the ancestors are basically just the Beforan trolls living out their lives a second time, this time dictated by Scratch's will and plans.

(going back to the [o] segment also reminded me about the ==> candies that Scratch kept around his penthouse which i had totally forgotten about and are definitely one of Homestuck's more fun metaconcept jokes)

I've heard people argue that Jack Noir has a degree of narrative power, somewhere above the reader perhaps, but I was never really convinced by it. The most compelling argument I've heard to date is that Spades Slick wills his robot eye into being real, but be realistic. More probably, it was a half-assed meta joke conjured by whatever ghost writer was in charge of the parts preceding Collide

i don't know about the robot eye gag, but Jack Noir's proximity to the fourth wall is supported by andrew's book commentary:

Villains in Homestuck tend to be meta-villains. That is, they exist much closer to the surface of the story's meta-bubble, and often interact with the way it's told. For instance, Jack Noir is the original owner of the 4th wall. [...] As a universal bureaucratic game construct, he can keep tabs on everything going on in the session, including just outside the story.
[...]
Though Jack Noir is a meta-villain, there are limits to this, possibly tied to his personality. It could be the scope of his ambition never includes messing with the story itself. His desire for power lies entirely within fictional parameters. Later, there are much more flagrant meta-villains, in Doc Scratch and Lord English. They live on the surface of the meta-bubble, and at times badly puncture it. All iterations of Lord English in total basically represent the ultimate meta-villain. Though it takes a very long time for this to become apparent, and for it to be revealed exactly what this means.

i think the conceit of this thread kind of glosses over the fact that a majority of characters in Homestuck exist on some kind of meta level, and a lot of the time, as andrew suggests in the above quote, whether the characters actually 'puncture the meta-bubble' depends largely on their intent. the trolls, for example, are reader-narrators of Homestuck, by virtue of watching the kids go about their business and interacting with that narrative through Trollian: but most of them aren't interested in actually taking control of that narrative. Vriska comes close, by using her powers to influence characters at key points in order to tell the story she wants to tell about Bec Noir. the exiles are perhaps a more blatant example of this: though existing within the story, they literally take the place of the reader-narrator using the command stations to provide the link text on every other page.

I am suddenly going to spout a theory there.

Everyone in homestuck has a level of narrative power. LEast everyone who is a person and not a game construct, we don't know if they have ultimate selves or even aspects.

Basically the ultimate self is the source of this power, dormant and asleep somewhere like some lovecraft elder god. Basically they are titans/primordial/gods of their aspects, which is why they can control reality and story, cause they manipulate both the more practical and narrative form of it. the splinters of these entities hold a tiny spark of their influence over the Aspect they are connected to. Paradox space's systems of the Three pillars, sburb, and the Author is meant to control and direct these splinters to help generate reality. Its why its a story, to create goals and objectives. The Doomed timlines are used to prevent secondary choices that sideline the Story from doing so, controlling the spark of power. Each spark becomes a dream of the Ultimate self, a piece of them, and is remembered and returns to the Ultimate self.

Under this theory what happens during God tiering is two splinters are combined, and stirs the Ultimate self's slumber, allowing the person to have greater awareness of their aspect, albeit limited only in its 'terrestrial' use and not its metatexual use. This is a death sentence even if they survive the requirements of the session, be it victory or defeat. Cause this God tiering causes the the ultimate self to slowly awake, the more that the person ponder's their powers and reality, and the ultimate self ultimately attempts to awaken fully into the world through the Alpha Self.
this is inevitable and there are no ways to avoid it. The older a person gets the more they self reflect. More they would try to experiment with their powers. Leading to them stimulating the ultimate self and thus leading to their deaths, for the Conditional immortality has a fine print that won't allow one to survive this, a third form of death.

Dirk inexplicably survived this process. However is a big question.. MY best theory is he found his Clock and destroyed it. Empowering his body with the strength to survive it and giving him unconditional immortality. Basically if the Clock has a secret third setting for the ultimate awakening, destroying it would allow one to 'die' from it and come back anyway, stronger than before. Unconditional immortality may in fact manifest as being able to judge your own death.

Cause a rule seem to remain for this Meta power things. You need to be alive to wield them. Hussie lost a lot of power and was gradually waning after his death. Robot bodies aren't a replacement neither, as someone in that state is less alive and more halfway between. But it certainly prevent them from their final physicla form dying. Who knows what happens to the ultimate self then. Does it too die and pass on to the actual afterlife? Or does it go into an eternal coma to never wake again? Or worse, until another version of itself is brought into existence to facilitate another Sburb session.

Its possible that not having a entirely natural body can help someone bypass the rule too. Jade might be able to awaken her ultimate self and survive, and she is playing host to an Ultimate self, Calliope.. That or claloipe hijacked Jade's ultimate self.