Homestuck.XYZ 2.0

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:04 pm

The retcon had big contradictions right from the getgo. That it was used to travel through the story was what everyone assumed, but despite John altering the course of the meteor (Vriska) and Meenah remained unchanged and Meenah even remembered having met the Karkat who dies in Game Over.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:48 pm

The bubbles might be isolated from Paradox Space, but they are not isolated from the narrative. We have no problem following characters when they go there and when they come back as the audience. We see them before Hussie dies and after as well. The bubbles play a large role in the narrative as the largest stakes in the story, with the destruction of the ghosts going around, and Meenah's interactions with pre-retcon Karkat were definitely narrated to us properly so they should've disappeared with the retcon even if Meenah meeting (Vriska) didn't.

There's other, larger issues, such as the Jack possessed by Lord English remaining in the story as an antagonist despite no Gamzee to deliver the Cal doll to him.

What these illustrate is that the power was never predictable in a real sense. Its limitations are not known to us. Could John have meddled into the narrative of the Ancestors? He certainly visited it once. Could he mess with Con Air's? How would that change everyone's experience of the movie in the past? I would go as far as to say we don't know any mechanics relating to the power at all, beyond the simple fact that it can change things without lashing out and getting John killed.

Even then, the timelines he creates ARE Alpha timelines in regular old Time's sense of the word. They all lead to the creation of Lord English. Without John's retcon power there would be no masterpiece as we know it.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:21 pm

This is a pretty silly quibble. Maybe John is just wrong? I don't remember him saying anything quite like what you paraphrase but it wouldn't be the first time a character gets tricked into doing exactly the opposite of what they wanted to do. John being tricked into thinking he's changing the course of history by defeating Caliborn as a kid leads to the birth of Lord English just like the tumor creates the Green Sun instead of destroying it. Maybe the Masterpiece was a lie that gets made into the truth because Caliborn believes in it and takes all the steps necessary to fullfil it, while John remains the dopey puppet he's always been.

And it doesn't really matter that Dave exists, because LE's birth doesn't happen in the story anyway. What we get is an in-story narrative showing us the retcon being used in the future, and that use of the retcon doesn't happen within Homestuck, it only happens in the Epilogues which are a separate story of dubious canonicity, told much later. What this means is the retcon is anticipated. The changes it will make are known beforehand. This is 100% the opposite of things like the arms and the oil, which were added after they were retconned in, and were not always part of the story.

And the furthest ring is such a big part of the narrative, and the ghosts have so much text and screentime to them, it's ridiculous to think they're out of the story on a meta level.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:42 pm

There are multiple retcons. What I'm saying is the Masterpiece predicts a retcon that hasn't taken place yet. A use of John's power outside of the story. John never retcons back to fight Caliborn within Homestuck, therefore the Masterpiece can't be the result of a retcon, just like the story couldn't have arms and oil all over old panels until John retconned them in.

The Masterpiece includes a retcon because of Caliborn's powers being aware and superceding the retcon, not because of John's ability to "control the narrative" which is pretty non-existant as he's not agentic at all. No retcon created the Masterpiece. It was how LE was created all along because John would always find the Juju and become detached from the flow of the narrative.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:27 am

John's retcon can't force anything because he can always retcon his own retcons away. What forces the narrative to bend to let the Masterpiece happen is that Caliborn narrated it and depicted it, making it something that the audience would expect. John did not cause the Masterpiece in Homestuck, he was narrated into causing it by a different narrative (Dirk) and meta-narrative force (The Authors of the Epilogues). His power has nothing to do with it, all the retcon does is make him a better tool for the narrative other people control.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:25 pm

Caliborn didn't need to know the specifics, all he needed to know was John was capable of 'ghost teleporting'. He wanted the Masterpiece to happen, that's why he started personally taunting John after Act 7 to piss him off and make him show up.

John's retcons don't alter the story till they happen, so the story can't include them until he uses the power, but the Masterpiece is in the story before John travels back. I really don't want to keep repeating this. If the question is 'what rules govern the retcon?' this is the most obvious one. Without it you could claim things like that John was Skaia all along because he went back and became Skaia after the epilogues. There's nothing stopping him. The real limitation to the power is that someone that has been reading along can see when a change is made

The only thing stopping the retcon from justifying all theories is that it can't have always been true, it has to clearly be retconned in by John and past readers have to be able to see the difference even if ones that read after the fact can't. Prophecies like the Masterpiece can only be true by being self-fulfilling, they can't be true via retcon before John goes back and makes them part of the story.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:01 pm

I think the difference is you think the characters get a say. The only limitation the retcon power had in Homestuck was that John had to want to use it, and so Hussie wrote it so John never wanted to use it even though there were plenty of reasons for him to do so and ways to mitigate any risks. He's never even tempted to, simply because he'd be too challenging to write if he could use the omnipotence he has.

Caliborn doesn't manipulate John because the Masterpiece never actually happens in Homestuck. The credits set it up but don't show it. In the epilogues, which are separate, the only reason John does everything he does is because Dirk is now the writer making him not want to use the retcon power effectively.

The narrator is never forced to comply because John is a doormat that does whatever other people want him to do. His characterization as the guy that wrote a guide on alchemy is totally gone by that point and he's flanderized into the "John, do what I say!" guy. But even then, there's no indication he can "defy" the story with it because back then there wasn't a biased narrator in practice. Whatever he did with it would simply become the story.

The Pesterquests are a different story in more senses than one. The power is completely different in form and function.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:01 pm

I think the difference is you think the characters get a say. The only limitation the retcon power had in Homestuck was that John had to want to use it, and so Hussie wrote it so John never wanted to use it even though there were plenty of reasons for him to do so and ways to mitigate any risks. He's never even tempted to, simply because he'd be too challenging to write if he could use the omnipotence he has.

Caliborn doesn't manipulate John because the Masterpiece never actually happens in Homestuck. The credits set it up but don't show it. In the epilogues, which are separate, the only reason John does everything he does is because Dirk is now the writer making him not want to use the retcon power effectively.

The narrator is never forced to comply because John is a doormat that does whatever other people want him to do. His characterization as the guy that wrote a guide on alchemy is totally gone by that point and he's flanderized into the "John, do what I say!" guy. But even then, there's no indication he can "defy" the story with it because back then there wasn't a biased narrator in practice. Whatever he did with it would simply become the story.

The Pesterquests are a different story in more senses than one. The power is completely different in form and function.

lillithRamie wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:22 am

This has got my conspiracy gears running. I'm going to focus first on the three aspects of the Retcon powers for this breakdown, super 'time travel', teleportation, and later on Canon. I won't get too deep into the effects on the Three pillars of Canon, just Truth. And then at the end my thoughts on Caliborn's Masterpiece and how Caliborn through his Time aspect indirectly caused the misuse of the Retcon ability. Spoilers for Epilogues and Pesterquest too.

I'm so sorry for the long ass post lamo.

Spoiler

Show

John's retcon powers allow him to move himself and anything he touches around the story/narrative itself. It seems like an OP time travel power with no downsides, despite not being time travel at all. Based off of what we've seen it from its use with John and Reader (MSPAR), Retcon gives one the ability to jump to any point in the previously established narrative. That is, any place or time that has been shown/narrated in Homestuck. Even inside Homosuck, a warped fanfiction Caliborn narrated using his control over the story of Homestuck.

The 'time travel' specifically operates within the confines of the currently explored narrative only, and is chronologically tied to a different plane of existence. That is our chronology the audience. We never see see a Retcon user jump forward into the narrative, in like a "Procon". Like, they don't hop into their own future to see what happens, and then pop back to change the outcome, at least not without us the audience and the narrative following them and seeing the 'future' ourselves. We don't have a yet to be seen 'future' Recton user popping in to change the current narrative, Masterpiece aside (I will get to this). Actions taken by characters using the Retcon ability is and can be followed by us, the audience as it happens.

A key difference with the Retcon ability that it acts almost nothing like time travel in the comic. With time travel you can create and unwillingly be 'commanded' (or otherwise doomed) as part of time loops that sustains themselves. Loops that can exist before you perform the time travel itself, because the loop has always existed that way because of shenanigans. A future self shows up and tells you "time travel back to this spot in five minutes and tell yourself my exact words" and bam, you got a time loop that you didn't start but you sure as hell gotta finish if you don't want to be doomed. The Retcon ability doesn't work that way at all! There is no surprise visit from yours or the audiences perspective. You won't see from your perspective a future self because that's always going to be you already. You can only be the future self, and all other you's that you meet are your past selves. One day you decided to Retcon yourself back in time and tell your past self to follow your exact actions. No one told you do that before. And it doesn't matter if past you follows your advice or not, because there is no loop just a single series of events you and the audience follow linearly.

This Retcon ability is so powerful that its own power itself is a flaw, because the act of traveling back in time is permanent to any alpha or doomed timelines. There isn't a concept of a doomed time line to clean up any mess you make with the alpha, it just becomes the new alpha shitty or not. At best, can go back in time and retcon your own retcon. Either way a Retcon will leave some sort of mark there, even if no one notices you.

(And as a side note, I have no idea how paradox space handles an alpha time line that is retconned to no longer be alpha. Pre-rectonned ghosts still persist even if the time line has been changed, and a Retcon user can still access other previously retconned-but-no-longer-alpha time lines like John does in the Epilogue. The full extent of un-retconning a time line isn't fully explored either, if possible at all. As soon as John gained his Retcon powers he causes a retcon to the alpha time line by loosing the Ring of Life, which made its way into Arania's hands and caused Game Over, not to mention his hand poking everything in existence. Would John even be able to warp to the original alpha timeline where he didn't loose the ring/get retcon abilities?)

I said above the user can travel to any place and time inside the narrative, and without time travel that just becomes teleportation. There are examples in the comic, and especially Pesterquest, where the Retcon ability is used without retconning anything at all, but just as a means of moving the story forward to a new location (or escaping something). All and all it acts like conventional teleportation. The Retcon user can jump to entirely new places, unseen in the previous narrative or by the User them self. For a practiced User, this can plop them anywhere they desire.

We have two examples of the Retcon not working.

The first explicit one we've seen was in the Candy Epilogue. At some point between collecting up Gamzee and John's attempt to save Dirk, John just straight up can't use the Retcon anymore. I will note here that John is not trying to jump back into the comic or anywhere outside of the Candy Epilogue to save Dirk. He's just trying to pop back a week. I think he also attempts to teleport with it maybe? Been a while. But either way, we can assume for now that he has lost all aspects of the Retcon ability.

The second in Pesterquest when Reader attempts to 'skip' ahead to see Nepeta they are blocked by an entity, T-Poser. Instead of teleporting to her, Reader ends up in some weird place repeatedly, unable to accomplish their goal. Upon regaining the memories of their friends from Friendsim, they are blocked once again from being able to time travel back to them as well. Both teleportation and time travel are blocked. Of note here is that when Reader acquires their powers, it happens inside of the Pesterquest game itself.

Theories!

One possible theory for Candy!John's blocked powers is that he is no longer part of the 'Homestuck Canon', and the House Juju's granted abilities only work inside that Canon. Use of the Retcon cannot jump between two different 'Canons'. When John grabbed Gamzee the 'Canon' split between Meat and Candy was dubious. By the time John wanted to prevent Dirk's death, the 'Canons' were fully split apart. This theory clashes with, or confirms the powers and limitations of Retcon in Pesterquest depending on how you look at it. Aradia states that Reader is in not just a doomed timeline, but a doomed universe. Using their abilities Reader has removed the 'Truth' pillar from the universe in the same way that John not using his ability removed the 'Truth' from Candy. Of course, there can be unknown variables at work here that allow this doomed Pesterquest universe to still have access to the Juju's power that aren't in Candy (like the Juju presenting Reader their powers in the Game/narrative).

John's ability loss could be because anything inside the black hole is cut from any sort of Canon changing power (and maybe John was only able to grab Gamzee because the Candy timeline wasn't fully 'transferred' into the black hole at the time). This would imply that the Retcon power comes from a source, and that it transmits to the user in such a way that it can be blocked off. This would also mean that those who have the Retcon power will always have the ability to use that power, assuming it isn't blocked off.

Alt!Calliope could be using her narrative powers to suppress John's abilities either selectively or completely, preventing the attempt to save Dirk (don't think any further attempts are mentioned?). As noted before John wasn't trying to jump back into the Homestuck or Meat Canon, he was trying to retcon inside Candy and Candy alone when he was stopped. This would mean certain powers can completely suppress the OP Retcon abilities, regardless of the Retcon users will. With this we don't know if Alt!Calliope has removed John's power completely, or if she is just blocking it temporarily and he can continue using the Retcon power once she stops narrating Candy.

This matches up with what we've seen in Pesterquest. Who or whatever is preventing Reader from using their abilities to the full effect of their will. T-Poser even tells Reader "Stop fucking trying to skip ahead. It's not going to work." after several attempts at meeting Nepeta before her chapter was released. This T-Poser, instead of shutting down the powers completely, is selectively allowing the Reader to use it to continue the narrative in PQ. While Readers inability to time travel back into Friendsims to see their friends could be seen as 'not being able to jump between canons', it seems just as likely the T-Posers doing. Another possibility is that when one (who still can use their Retcon powers) trys jumping to another canon they are brought to that strange hallway and T-Poser instead. Maybe T-Poser is the source of the Retcon power instead of a narrater? (Or maybe both, Andrew Hussie)

Finally we come to the conspiracy part of this conspiracy-turned-retcon-mechanics-wordvomit.

I think Caliborn's Masterpiece was a Truth Paradox, and it's why the Epilogues and everything after that point are and should be considered dubiously canon. You can't retcon a story that hasn't happened yet, and yet Caliborn narrated it into some weird Truth of Canon. Caliborn's whole THING is time loops, the undeniable truth and essentiality that these loops must be filled or doomed away. And Caliborn, that fucker, his fault or not applied that concept to the only form of time travel that can't have any loops. Hammered in the square into the circle hole.

John is our anchor in this story, we follow his path as he changes things via Retcon. This is true for the entier comic, and for Reader in Pesterquest. Both our timeline and the Main Character's timeline increment together. Maybe not consistently between updates or whatnot, but our timelines are both always going forward together (Flashbacks don't count shush). In the Masterpiece this isn't true. We have a John from the future show up. An unknown. This John has traveled back from an unknown future story, we do not know him. He could be John five minutes after winning Sburb, June in her 40's, John in his 20's, or ultimate!self June who's been alive for a thousand years. But he isn't our John. Any John/June could fill in that clay doll so long as they possess the Retcon ability (or have some way of showing up with "ghost powers"). Hell, even a look alike could, I double Caliborn would know the difference.

Any of those clay dolls could be any version of the characters they represent, or look alikes. To further obscure things, when Caliborn is retelling the tale it isn't from personal experience. He hasn't fought the kids at all and it isn't happening to him as he narrates. No, a screen showed him the supposed battle. "I SAW IT ONCE, ON ONE OF MY PLANET'S MANY SCREENS. THE LAND OF "COLOURS". AND THE LAND OF "MAYHEM"." Can we even trust this supposed retelling of an event that happened on a screen? A screen that may or may not have been showing the truth?

All these factors make the Masterpiece highly unreliable. The most unreliable Homestuck has ever been. I'm reminded of Equius's Pesterquest route. The moment Reader decides to hop backwards in time to see how Equius broke his horn, we are not given a single cause. Instead, Reader enters into dubious canonical territory showing multiple canons where Equius lost his horn. I think this exactly what the Masterpiece is, and why it's true form was never shown in the comic. Why it had that weird inconstancy with John's Retcon and why the 'Canon' Meat Epilogue addressed it. Even Candy, by using the power of two entier universes in the form of a blackhole to keep these characters alive in a pocket dimension by addressing it indirectly. Like I said, any John/June could fulfil the requirements that the Masterpiece needs to complete the Story. And all of those June's and John's will be, if narrated, the anchor and the true original future John/June predeterminately retconning the story. Every way Equius lost his horn is true: Every way the Masterpiece is and will be narrated/addressed is true.