Is it Possible 'canon' isolates some of paradox space for the Story? Pesterquest Spoilers

[thorondraco]

One of the biggest questions i have had about homestuck since finishing it almost a year ago, was why we never see another session. No other species, no other kids or players. I think i might have gotten a weird answer with Pesterquest (this relates more to homestuck as a whole also spoilers).

During the very first moments of Pesterquest, the reader attempts to return to Alternia via the very Wall he exited from, after seeing Spades and realizing chaos was about to ensue. Having read this part of the story. Instead of heading back he ends up trapped in a strange hallway, seemingly in the void itself. There he mysteriously discovers the House Juju just sitting on the ground, and he touches it and thus pesterquest starts.

In the latest route the read regains his memories, and has the option of attempting to return to Friendsims Alternia again. But it ultimately ends with him in the Void once more. Not the hallway, no, but the void itself, vibing with a horror terror.

It made me wonder something. What if 'canon' as defined in paradox space is a part of their reality, a timeline, that has been isolated from the rest of paradox space in order to fufill the requirements of the Story being told without outside interference? And that is what it actually means to be 'out of canon' in paradox space, its just not part of the story defining it. But of course even out of canon/post canon stuff is beholden to it. It cannot contradict it and can be thrown away in the face of it. So a timeline outside of the Canon shouldn't be able to impact canon and if it tries, it is doomed by paradox space.
The shadows between the panels and prose might be freer and more malleable than the story itself, but it is still beholden to Paradox Space's 'canon'.

So it means that Hiveswap is its own Narrative now. Though at the same time its not entirely disconnected from Homestuck. Presumably Jude and Joey are Jake Harley's kids. Its on alternia if centuries beforehand. But Hiveswap has somehow been isolated from Homestuck. And if two stories cannot overlap, it means that could be an explanation of why we never saw overlap before.

Course the question is why the FUCK does Hiveswap has its own narrative space? Its not sburb. Shenanigans abound but it isn't sburb. Maybe it has sburb tech involved, but what is going on there?

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

https://mspaintadventures.fandom.com/wi ... alkthrough

I'm under the impression that a lot of the other SBURB sessions on Earth were null, even more than the expected failure rate, because of faulty information in Rose's poorly-revised walkthrough.

I may have been a bit hasty in advising you not to bother with the prototyping
process. If I spared any detail, it was only to optimize your chances of survival.

That could lead to there being more void sessions than usual.

[JakeMorph]

you're not looking at it meta enough. hiveswap has its own narrative bubble because it is its own narrative. it's that simple

[thorondraco]

https://mspaintadventures.fandom.com/wi ... alkthrough

I'm under the impression that a lot of the other SBURB sessions on Earth were null, even more than the expected failure rate, because of faulty information in Rose's poorly-revised walkthrough.

I may have been a bit hasty in advising you not to bother with the prototyping
process. If I spared any detail, it was only to optimize your chances of survival.

That could lead to there being more void sessions than usual.

There hsould be many other sessions happening throughout paradox space. Countless even. Other species, other stories unseen.

[Ian Gitax]

It made me wonder something. What if 'canon' as defined in paradox space is a part of their reality, a timeline, that has been isolated from the rest of paradox space in order to fufill the requirements of the Story being told without outside interference? And that is what it actually means to be 'out of canon' in paradox space, its just not part of the story defining it. But of course even out of canon/post canon stuff is beholden to it. It cannot contradict it and can be thrown away in the face of it. So a timeline outside of the Canon shouldn't be able to impact canon and if it tries, it is doomed by paradox space.

You're describing the alpha timeline, AKA the timeline that leads to Lord English's existence. Homestuck and by extension paradox space itself is his story, and the boundaries of its narrative are defined by the events that begin and end his existence.

Hiveswap might just be another sequence of events indirectly necessary for Lord English's story to occur, or it could have its own narrative lynchpin that happens to intersect with his.

[thorondraco]

you're not looking at it meta enough. hiveswap has its own narrative bubble because it is its own narrative. it's that simple

It obviously is not part of the homestuck timeloop for sure. But we don't know HOW that is happening. From what we can tell tis not a sburb session. Some sburb tech seems to be in use perhaps, that green cube for example was not alternia tech. The cherub tech itself of course. But we don't know what is letting Hiveswap be seen to use.

Basically there seems to be some method or mechanism to what we see in the story. Whole three pillar shit. But that only applies to sburb sessions, both those we know about and the many seemingly far less important ones that went on outside of our parapheral. Everything about Canon is about the Sessions. These reality defining events that even the time outside of the direct story is utterly beholden to them.
Alternatively its possible that there weren't any other sessions going on cause something borked up badly. Lord english happened. Or fuck maybe it wasn't english but John that happened. Maybe its the god damn reader! The rabbit hole is deep in this line of thought.

Yet here we are, waiting for the act 2 of a very, very visible narrative going on that has nothing to do with Sburb from what we can see. It might secretly have sburb tech involved. It has strange cherub devices after all. What mechanism of paradox space that allows a bit of Narrative to form is being applied here through whatever loophole ass shenanigans are being applied.

If its not connected to homestuck, what is Hiveswap connected to? What is giving it this focus? WHO is even? Is it in fact part of a session? Did someone figure out a way to trick this mechanism? AND why did they send a lonely mostly rich white girl across fucking time, space, and narrative onto a hostile alien planet? What is Hiveswap's purpose, and whose purpose is it?


Be clear i am pretty certain Hussie planed on it just being a side story, hell maybe ending with Joey and co heading to earth c if he felt generous. But its been a long time and so much is going on that it seems unlikely that he would leave it at that. Especially as the pesterquest is apparently literally damaging paradox space. That... would be ridiculous if that is all the impact it has.

"Nah the Hiveswap thing, pure side content. This semi cheaply made Visual novel doh? Definitely worth including in overarching continuity."

[thorondraco]

It made me wonder something. What if 'canon' as defined in paradox space is a part of their reality, a timeline, that has been isolated from the rest of paradox space in order to fufill the requirements of the Story being told without outside interference? And that is what it actually means to be 'out of canon' in paradox space, its just not part of the story defining it. But of course even out of canon/post canon stuff is beholden to it. It cannot contradict it and can be thrown away in the face of it. So a timeline outside of the Canon shouldn't be able to impact canon and if it tries, it is doomed by paradox space.

You're describing the alpha timeline, AKA the timeline that leads to Lord English's existence. Homestuck and by extension paradox space itself is his story, and the boundaries of its narrative are defined by the events that begin and end his existence.

Hiveswap might just be another sequence of events indirectly necessary for Lord English's story to occur, or it could have its own narrative lynchpin that happens to intersect with his.

We are presented with Canon space and peripheral space. Canon space is the sburb sessions of paradox space, solely. Peripheral space is the timlines and realities generated by the Canon space and, while not always directly part of it, are beholden to the Canon. Peripheral space connects to canon via Post canon, where the peripheral space and canon intersect. Arguably there is also a 'precanon' the events beforehand. EArth C sits in both post and pre canon as it enters back into canon near its demise eons later.

The thing is paradox space only ever shows us Canon. Whatever mechanism is used for us to see anything, is if it has any connection to the Session, the Story, or if a narrator and author deigns it worth seeing. The Bonus Content form the patreon of HS^2 is in a sense peripheral space pulled into the story for a brief moment.

So how the FUCK is Hiveswap even visible to us? Why is is deigned worth seeing? Who deigned it so? Who is the deinging mother deinger who deigned that we see it?

And obviously, Hiveswap does not majorly interact with Homestuck, Otherwise the Reader could have simply teleported back into it. If it fufilled something for Homestuck, it is part of the Story of Homestuck. But if its a different narrative, then what narrative is being for, and what is it supporting?

I doubt at htis point its just like, some side content. It may have, once upon a time, been just that. But i don't think it could be that now. Hussie is too determined to make it and they are doing an alarming amount of stuff with a living YCH stick figure who came from what was meant to be nothing but a time filler as they struggled to work on act 2.

Seriously its like, they are stting the Reader up for something major. So why would the Reader be like, important enough for that kinda stuff, and now Hiveswap?

[thorondraco]

General Gist i am trying to say is that, only 'important' things appear to us from Paradox space and its authors. Things essential to a timeline, relevant to us seeing, and are ultimately true to the tenuous reality that is Paradox Space.

I don't think with as meta obsessed and focused as homestuck is, and Homestuck^2 is even more so, that they aren't applying that concept to some degree to Hiveswap. Cause they seem to be applying it to Pesterquest.

[Ian Gitax]

So how the FUCK is Hiveswap even visible to us? Why is is deigned worth seeing? Who deigned it so? Who is the deinging mother deinger who deigned that we see it?

And obviously, Hiveswap does not majorly interact with Homestuck, Otherwise the Reader could have simply teleported back into it. If it fufilled something for Homestuck, it is part of the Story of Homestuck. But if its a different narrative, then what narrative is being for, and what is it supporting?

Doc Scratch seems to be Hiveswap's narrator figure, given he responds to the player pressing the hint button.

[thorondraco]

So how the FUCK is Hiveswap even visible to us? Why is is deigned worth seeing? Who deigned it so? Who is the deinging mother deinger who deigned that we see it?

And obviously, Hiveswap does not majorly interact with Homestuck, Otherwise the Reader could have simply teleported back into it. If it fufilled something for Homestuck, it is part of the Story of Homestuck. But if its a different narrative, then what narrative is being for, and what is it supporting?

Doc Scratch seems to be Hiveswap's narrator figure, given he responds to the player pressing the hint button.

And makes a bunch of excuses about not helping as well.

I have heard the theory that doc has narrative powers but i really don't think he does. He talks of a puppetmaster, but its clear He isn't he puppetmaster.

How could he be a puppet master? He himself, is a puppet. A puppet fully aware of the script, save for the parts he must not know about for the proper responses, but a puppet non the less. Just cause the puppet knows its all an act doesn't change the fact he he is a sock that has someone's hand shoved up his ass.

That was a weird metaphor.
I would think that Doc would have narrated John into not stopping Vriska's death considering he was narrating at the point where John cold clocks Vriska. To altering it so Vriska sitll died. But he didn't. And if he didn't the only explanation is, he couldn't.

Effectively speaking, now that i think about it, it kinda proves two are involved at once. The narrator of the direct story, and the help function. Implying doc scratch is subserviant to the narrator here.

[JakeMorph]

what exactly are "narrative powers" in your mind? doc scratch can narrate the story: we have seen him do as much in the comic. if he narrates something happening, and it actually happens, how can you prove it wasn't him making it happen? such is the whole purpose of the narrator-character.

[thorondraco]

what exactly are "narrative powers" in your mind? doc scratch can narrate the story: we have seen him do as much in the comic. if he narrates something happening, and it actually happens, how can you prove it wasn't him making it happen? such is the whole purpose of the narrator-character.

I think what i mean is ultimately semantics. What i mean is that Doc scratch cannot manipulate reality. He cannot 'narrate' like Hussie, let alone Dirk who has certain limitations to his power that Hussie didn't.

Same semantics as Canon i guess. We are talking the difference between classical 'narration' and metaphysical homestuck 'narration'. Basically the difference between being aware of how reality can be manipulated, and actually being able to.

I don't think there is any evidence he has to power to change the narrative, even though he is aware of it. No part of him. He is a first guardian who are completely bound to ensuring their existence and that the session exists. They likely don't have narrative influence even though they have awareness of it. Doc scratch has more than most because of the white orb he is made from. But even then that gives one awareness of reality, not power over it, and Doc himself is very much beholden to the narrative.

Maybe he had a small bit of influence from lord english, but lord english doesn't seem to have any power. He is the focus of the timeline's existence, as his existence faciltiates the creation of what appears to be important factors of paradox space, including the Green sun. But he isn't necessarily the master nor a narrator. He is a device. Or maybe he is a cancer, a mistake that is too powerful to undo. He was made to be invincible after all. At the very least he had no means of countering or even detecting the changes that John made to the timeline.

The friendsims implies he has no true comprehension of the forces behind Friendsims and Hiveswap either. "Quantum sphegetti thrown at the wall" simply seeing what patterns stick and what leads to the desired goals. And in pesterquest it almsot semi admits Doc is not the 'puppetmaster' behind it.

so yea i might have completely overthought it but i can't think of an aspect of Doc scratch that could lead to him having reality manipulation. Or if he had it why did he never utilize it against John? I.. i think its telling that in order to beat Lord english, they ended up destroying paradox space as we know it.

[JakeMorph]

what I'm saying is that you can't prove that Scratch can't manipulate the narrative. if the white text tells you that something happened, how are you supposed to prove it didn't happen? you can't, because Homestuck is a comic, and someone who takes the role of narrating that comic has complete authority on what does or doesn't happen.

how exactly would he have interacted with John? his domain his Alternia, a place John has only ever been extremely briefly.

[thorondraco]

what I'm saying is that you can't prove that Scratch can't manipulate the narrative. if the white text tells you that something happened, how are you supposed to prove it didn't happen? you can't, because Homestuck is a comic, and someone who takes the role of narrating that comic has complete authority on what does or doesn't happen.

how exactly would he have interacted with John? his domain his Alternia, a place John has only ever been extremely briefly.

I kinda did disprove it a bit? Because there is no part of Doc Scratch that could allow him to take over the narrative or manipulate it.

We only know of three forces that can manipulate a narrative. An author like Hussie, a player that has unlocked their ultimate self, and someone with Retcon powers, but far as we know the latter two are connected in some way.
And yea that brief moment is all he would needed. He would have to act in the past of course, to that moment John appears, but that means nothing really. He could erase what John did after that point by preventing him from enacting it, like John did to himself.

Doc scratch does not posses any of these so where would the power come from?
I did go back and read the point he comes into the picture. He narrates exclusively in the past tense rather than in the present tense. In addition how he displays the going ons is through a mixture of a television set and his scrapbook. A screen to view the events as they happened, the scrapbook that created him holding the actions to show. All of it indirect and prepared for himself to use in this moment. All in the past tense.

All other narration done is in the presentish tense, whenever that Present is.

Also even IF Doc had any influence over the narrative, its being made clear that someone else is in charge. He couldn't set anything up on earth. And as we seemingly confirmed earlier, Hiveswap has a different Narrative it is connected to. Meaning it is not part of the timeloop. Doc is a player in this story, a small link, but the events of Hiveswap are not part of Homestuck directly.

[JakeMorph]

he literally takes over the narration of the story right there in the comic bro idk what it is you're missing

[thorondraco]

what I'm saying is that you can't prove that Scratch can't manipulate the narrative. if the white text tells you that something happened, how are you supposed to prove it didn't happen? you can't, because Homestuck is a comic, and someone who takes the role of narrating that comic has complete authority on what does or doesn't happen.

how exactly would he have interacted with John? his domain his Alternia, a place John has only ever been extremely briefly.

Basically i am saying that narrative power doesn't seem reliant on being aware of the narrative. John has it and he is god damn unaware of its reality. So being aware of the narrative like Doc, and telling a story in past tense, does not mean he has power OVER the narrative, just the aiblity to recount it as the mechanism showing the story got broken.

and ultimately its being made clear someone else in in charge of these shenanigans.

[thorondraco]

he literally takes over the narration of the story right there in the comic bro idk what it is you're missing

I am saying him doing that is probably irrelevant and is more like him telling a story second hand. Especially with how he displays it and the many moments the story keeps going in his absence.

I will admit there is a LOT we don't know about how this works. If for example, if someone could act as a narrator but not havecontrol of the narrative, simply supplying information and observing. There are moment where in the epilogues where it seems like Dirk is just observing rather than manipulating the events. So its possible to have events going on autopilot and the narrator simply observes what is going on. Dirk does this whenever Calliope was in control. He was not blinded to what was going on but he could not influence them nor narrate them.

Eh i'll concede we can't prove or disprove what Doc was capable of, yet.

Though i think it is clear that if he has any power like that, its weak compared to others. John completely overrides his bullshit with his retcon powers. https://www.homestuck.com/story/3836

Even if they had enough power to create a story, like you said, he has no power to do anything on Earth and other places. It means someone else is involved, and possibly in charge. The puppetmaster. Someone with more narrative power than Doc has.

Dirk is the most likely candidate right now. It might be hussie pulling some shit maybe, but Dirk is more likely. Especially as if Hiveswap is its own narrative not connected to Homestuck's timeloop, then someone else than Hussie is involved. Which is what i was talking about earlier about how we are seeing Hiveswap if they are applying the Three pillars meta stuff to all of their projects.

[thorondraco]

he literally takes over the narration of the story right there in the comic bro idk what it is you're missing

Whatever Doc is capable of, someone else is pulling the strings here.