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Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:58 pm
by TH4NK YOU B3N
I think it's safe to say, what with the abundance of trans reveals in Pesterquest, that Skaia does not care at all about assigned sex when it comes to the players in its sessions. Either it cares more about a balance of personality types, which tend to correlate with personal identity, or the parity is a weird coincidence.
https://www.homestuck.com/story/6065
And what makes you so sure they are all men?
Have you sexed them?
FUCK YOU. AND YOUR RIBALD INSINUATIONS.
MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FROG MEN IS STRICTLY PROFESSIONAL.
No, I mean determined their sex.
Do you even know how?
I DON'T CARE.
THEY'RE ALL MEN. BECAUSE I SAY THEY ARE. AND I WANT THEM TO BE.
IF I BELIEVE HARD ENOUGH IN THEM BEING MEN.
THEN THAT FACT BECOMES ABSOLUTELY INDISPUTABLE AS A PERMANENT MAN REALITY.
It does?
ARE YOU TELLING ME. THAT YOU HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE. THAT MY ENTOURAGE OF DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMEN.
CONSISTS OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN BOYS???
No.
I mean, I don't know.
I'm not there, so I can't sex them to be sure.
YOU FUCKING PERVERT.
That's not what sexing means you little shit!
I'D LIKE TO CHANGE THE TOPIC. AWAY FROM THE LUST YOU ARE FEELING FOR MY HANDSOME FROG MEN.
Despite Caliborn's humorous fixation on gender, we're meant to see Hussie as more in the wrong in this exchange.
Have you tried injuring blue stripe hat yet?
NO.
WHY WOULD I HURT HIM. HE IS MY LOYAL MINION, ALBEIT ONE WHO IS OVERWEIGHT AND APPARENTLY USELESS.
All of the Hussie character's ideas are just plain terrible. Who the fuck does a TSA scan on someone they just met? Why would Caliborn injure someone who isn't a threat to his existence?
I know I'm quoting from Homestuck proper in this case, but I wanted to show that Caliborn's views are compatible with a trans-friendly Alternia.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm
by thorondraco
iii think you are forgetting that time he literally gunned down Gamzee, multiple times, despite him having no threat to his existence. He is literally an incarnation of negative emotion and behavior.
though it is true that Caliborn becomes very much attached to the leprechauns, far more than he was with Gamzee, though this attachment dies when he becomes Lord english. Perhaps it was a result of having half of gamzee? Presumably the eviler half?
I wouldn't say that Caliborn is exactly trans friendly, especially if it involved transition to female nouns. He would probably be selective in his 'wokeness' and only accept trans men cause, to emulate Caliborn's thought process, "OF COURSE THEY WOULD WANT TO BECOME THE STRONGER, SUPERIOR SEX. ITS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED."
'mentally barfs'.
.. wait a minute. Caliborn IS technically trans! O>O
If we apply the species deal, Cherubs are hermaphrodites, if of a more supernatural quality. They literally are genderless and sexless. In a sense they are 'nonbinary' in the truest sense. Not even talking Asari shit here. Meaning that for a species that does not have a binary in terms of Sex or gender, adopting a gender would be becoming transgender to them.
But then that means that calliope kinda untransitioned or something. Is that a thing? I am not super versed in all the nuances. Calliope readopted the gender-neutral state of her species.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
by Kidpen
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm
iii think you are forgetting that time he literally gunned down Gamzee, multiple times, despite him having no threat to his existence. He is literally an incarnation of negative emotion and behavior.
though it is true that Caliborn becomes very much attached to the leprechauns, far more than he was with Gamzee, though this attachment dies when he becomes Lord english. Perhaps it was a result of having half of gamzee? Presumably the eviler half?
I wouldn't say that Caliborn is exactly trans friendly, especially if it involved transition to female nouns. He would probably be selective in his 'wokeness' and only accept trans men cause, to emulate Caliborn's thought process, "OF COURSE THEY WOULD WANT TO BECOME THE STRONGER, SUPERIOR SEX. ITS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED."
'mentally barfs'.
.. wait a minute. Caliborn IS technically trans! O>O
If we apply the species deal, Cherubs are hermaphrodites, if of a more supernatural quality. They literally are genderless and sexless. In a sense they are 'nonbinary' in the truest sense. Not even talking Asari shit here. Meaning that for a species that does not have a binary in terms of Sex or gender, adopting a gender would be becoming transgender to them.
But then that means that calliope kinda untransitioned or something. Is that a thing? I am not super versed in all the nuances. Calliope readopted the gender-neutral state of her species.
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:30 pm
by thorondraco
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm
iii think you are forgetting that time he literally gunned down Gamzee, multiple times, despite him having no threat to his existence. He is literally an incarnation of negative emotion and behavior.
though it is true that Caliborn becomes very much attached to the leprechauns, far more than he was with Gamzee, though this attachment dies when he becomes Lord english. Perhaps it was a result of having half of gamzee? Presumably the eviler half?
I wouldn't say that Caliborn is exactly trans friendly, especially if it involved transition to female nouns. He would probably be selective in his 'wokeness' and only accept trans men cause, to emulate Caliborn's thought process, "OF COURSE THEY WOULD WANT TO BECOME THE STRONGER, SUPERIOR SEX. ITS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED."
'mentally barfs'.
.. wait a minute. Caliborn IS technically trans! O>O
If we apply the species deal, Cherubs are hermaphrodites, if of a more supernatural quality. They literally are genderless and sexless. In a sense they are 'nonbinary' in the truest sense. Not even talking Asari shit here. Meaning that for a species that does not have a binary in terms of Sex or gender, adopting a gender would be becoming transgender to them.
But then that means that calliope kinda untransitioned or something. Is that a thing? I am not super versed in all the nuances. Calliope readopted the gender-neutral state of her species.
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
ARanea used terms that were easier to udnerstand but the only dichotomy that apepars to have anything to do with cherbus is that their reproduction literally requires a battle of good over evil to work. But either individual are capable of laying the egg.
Should be noted that more than likely the majority of Cherubs don't have access to other lifeforms. At most if the planet of their birth had a civilization they would learn from that. Its likely that they end up focusing more on conquering theri other half before they see the cosmos and learn from that.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:33 pm
by egg
Caliborn is powerful enough to make a man reality real simply by believing hard enough in the power of the D.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:58 pm
by Kidpen
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:30 pm
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm
iii think you are forgetting that time he literally gunned down Gamzee, multiple times, despite him having no threat to his existence. He is literally an incarnation of negative emotion and behavior.
though it is true that Caliborn becomes very much attached to the leprechauns, far more than he was with Gamzee, though this attachment dies when he becomes Lord english. Perhaps it was a result of having half of gamzee? Presumably the eviler half?
I wouldn't say that Caliborn is exactly trans friendly, especially if it involved transition to female nouns. He would probably be selective in his 'wokeness' and only accept trans men cause, to emulate Caliborn's thought process, "OF COURSE THEY WOULD WANT TO BECOME THE STRONGER, SUPERIOR SEX. ITS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED."
'mentally barfs'.
.. wait a minute. Caliborn IS technically trans! O>O
If we apply the species deal, Cherubs are hermaphrodites, if of a more supernatural quality. They literally are genderless and sexless. In a sense they are 'nonbinary' in the truest sense. Not even talking Asari shit here. Meaning that for a species that does not have a binary in terms of Sex or gender, adopting a gender would be becoming transgender to them.
But then that means that calliope kinda untransitioned or something. Is that a thing? I am not super versed in all the nuances. Calliope readopted the gender-neutral state of her species.
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
ARanea used terms that were easier to udnerstand but the only dichotomy that apepars to have anything to do with cherbus is that their reproduction literally requires a battle of good over evil to work. But either individual are capable of laying the egg.
Should be noted that more than likely the majority of Cherubs don't have access to other lifeforms. At most if the planet of their birth had a civilization they would learn from that. Its likely that they end up focusing more on conquering theri other half before they see the cosmos and learn from that.
But why would those terms be easier to understand if she specifies that the male or the female can both be either alignment?
In fact, now that I'm looking at the text more closely, it seems to be explicitly confirmed that there is some inherit difference between male cherubs and female cherubs: if the male lays the egg, the alignments are the same in terms of which sex gets which. If the female does, the alignments are swapped. That more or less confirms a literal dichotomy gender wise with cherubs, unless I'm not thinking of something obvious. In terms of reproduction, I don't think it specifically disallows homosexual reproduction, but it does make it less likely.
Edit: oh also, could someone explain the trans reveals in pesterquest like I'm five? By which I mean everyone has been saying Vriska trans confirmed, and I'm pretty sure I missed whatever that was in her route. Eridan is obvious, if debatable, and if there's anybody else I'd appreciate being told about that too!
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:14 pm
by thorondraco
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:58 pm
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:30 pm
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
ARanea used terms that were easier to udnerstand but the only dichotomy that apepars to have anything to do with cherbus is that their reproduction literally requires a battle of good over evil to work. But either individual are capable of laying the egg.
Should be noted that more than likely the majority of Cherubs don't have access to other lifeforms. At most if the planet of their birth had a civilization they would learn from that. Its likely that they end up focusing more on conquering theri other half before they see the cosmos and learn from that.
But why would those terms be easier to understand if she specifies that the male or the female can both be either alignment?
In fact, now that I'm looking at the text more closely, it seems to be explicitly confirmed that there is some inherit difference between male cherubs and female cherubs: if the male lays the egg, the alignments are the same in terms of which sex gets which. If the female does, the alignments are swapped. That more or less confirms a literal dichotomy gender wise with cherubs, unless I'm not thinking of something obvious. In terms of reproduction, I don't think it specifically disallows homosexual reproduction, but it does make it less likely.
Edit: oh also, could someone explain the trans reveals in pesterquest like I'm five? By which I mean everyone has been saying Vriska trans confirmed, and I'm pretty sure I missed whatever that was in her route. Eridan is obvious, if debatable, and if there's anybody else I'd appreciate being told about that too!
Vriska was slightly tiny bit hinted at. Largely her conflict and confusion over her own identity is the source of the comparison. It may have the same notes as gender dysphoria but it is focused on her core essence, who she is, rather than her sex or gender.
Eridan was basically very much out there and they are making a few jokes about a crossdressing Eridan become lore stuff now which is pretty okay in my book. Though considering they were blatant here and like hyper deepstate subtle with the Vriska one?
Also no its not the 'male' who lays the egg for Cherubs, is the loser of the duel. Though it does seem implied that at least there are two standard bodyframes for Cherubs maybe? A more sleek if still sexless form and a hulking one. But either can bare the egg if they lose.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:19 pm
by calamityCons
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:58 pm
Edit: oh also, could someone explain the trans reveals in pesterquest like I'm five? By which I mean everyone has been saying Vriska trans confirmed, and I'm pretty sure I missed whatever that was in her route. Eridan is obvious, if debatable, and if there's anybody else I'd appreciate being told about that too!
In Vriska's route there are three major hints that point toward her being trans:
- She tells MSPAR not to call her dude.
- She opens up about discovering Mindfang's journal and being extremely impressed and desiring to be exactly like her. I believe there were also mentions of going online and telling people she was a girl in there, which also points in this direction.
- When you read her character sheet for FLARP, she puts eight exclamation points after F, signifying this is something she's very excited about, and pointing toward experiencing gender euphoria.
I didn't notice anything in Sollux's route that gave any kind of hint toward him being trans, but Hussie made a tweet explaining that Eridan was jealous of how Sollux's Bicyclops Dad respected Sollux's gender and never misgendered him, while Eridan's own lusus was really aloof and vaguely disappointed in Eridan opening up about the topic.
Eridan is at the very least a gender-nonconforming, and perhaps genderfluid, agender, some other flavor of nonbinary such as demigirl, or simply a crossdresser. Either way, he's canonically gender queer now, which I think suits him because of previous points of evidence such as him playing "A Game for Girls" like FLARP, his fashion sense, and some ambiguity on whether or not he wears lipstick.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:34 pm
by Kidpen
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:14 pm
[snip]
Also no its not the 'male' who lays the egg for Cherubs, is the loser of the duel. Though it does seem implied that at least there are two standard bodyframes for Cherubs maybe? A more sleek if still sexless form and a hulking one. But either can bare the egg if they lose.
Yes, if you look at what I said we agree on this subject. The loser of the duel lays the egg. If the male is the loser, the moral alignment is the same. If the female is the loser, the moral alignment is swapped.
https://www.homestuck.com/story/5975
I'm having trouble seeing how the exposition presented in this page could possibly make any sense at all if cherubs don't have sexual dichotomy. Although maybe there's another explicit personality type that they/Aranea equates with gender? That would turn the moral alignment line into more of quadrants, with either male and female and either evil or good. I suppose that's technically possible, although honestly if that was established now i would feel like it's kind of a retcon considering how it's kind of a stretch to phrase it that way.
calamityCons wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:19 pm
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:58 pm
Edit: oh also, could someone explain the trans reveals in pesterquest like I'm five? By which I mean everyone has been saying Vriska trans confirmed, and I'm pretty sure I missed whatever that was in her route. Eridan is obvious, if debatable, and if there's anybody else I'd appreciate being told about that too!
In Vriska's route there are three major hints that point toward her being trans:
- She tells MSPAR not to call her dude.
- She opens up about discovering Mindfang's journal and being extremely impressed and desiring to be exactly like her. I believe there were also mentions of going online and telling people she was a girl in there, which also points in this direction.
- When you read her character sheet for FLARP, she puts eight exclamation points after F, signifying this is something she's very excited about, and pointing toward experiencing gender euphoria.
I didn't notice anything in Sollux's route that gave any kind of hint toward him being trans, but Hussie made a tweet explaining that Eridan was jealous of how Sollux's Bicyclops Dad respected Sollux's gender and never misgendered him, while Eridan's own lusus was really aloof and vaguely disappointed in Eridan opening up about the topic.
Eridan is at the very least a gender-nonconforming, and perhaps genderfluid, agender, some other flavor of nonbinary such as demigirl, or simply a crossdresser. Either way, he's canonically gender queer now, which I think suits him because of previous points of evidence such as him playing "A Game for Girls" like FLARP, his fashion sense, and some ambiguity on whether or not he wears lipstick.
Thanks! I'm not super practiced at noticing these things, so I appreciate the explanation. It's definitely a topic I'm sure I'll change my mind on very often in the future.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:25 pm
by thorondraco
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:34 pm
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:14 pm
[snip]
Also no its not the 'male' who lays the egg for Cherubs, is the loser of the duel. Though it does seem implied that at least there are two standard bodyframes for Cherubs maybe? A more sleek if still sexless form and a hulking one. But either can bare the egg if they lose.
Yes, if you look at what I said we agree on this subject. The loser of the duel lays the egg. If the male is the loser, the moral alignment is the same. If the female is the loser, the moral alignment is swapped.
https://www.homestuck.com/story/5975
I'm having trouble seeing how the exposition presented in this page could possibly make any sense at all if cherubs don't have sexual dichotomy. Although maybe there's another explicit personality type that they/Aranea equates with gender? That would turn the moral alignment line into more of quadrants, with either male and female and either evil or good. I suppose that's technically possible, although honestly if that was established now i would feel like it's kind of a retcon considering how it's kind of a stretch to phrase it that way.
calamityCons wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:19 pm
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:58 pm
Edit: oh also, could someone explain the trans reveals in pesterquest like I'm five? By which I mean everyone has been saying Vriska trans confirmed, and I'm pretty sure I missed whatever that was in her route. Eridan is obvious, if debatable, and if there's anybody else I'd appreciate being told about that too!
In Vriska's route there are three major hints that point toward her being trans:
- She tells MSPAR not to call her dude.
- She opens up about discovering Mindfang's journal and being extremely impressed and desiring to be exactly like her. I believe there were also mentions of going online and telling people she was a girl in there, which also points in this direction.
- When you read her character sheet for FLARP, she puts eight exclamation points after F, signifying this is something she's very excited about, and pointing toward experiencing gender euphoria.
I didn't notice anything in Sollux's route that gave any kind of hint toward him being trans, but Hussie made a tweet explaining that Eridan was jealous of how Sollux's Bicyclops Dad respected Sollux's gender and never misgendered him, while Eridan's own lusus was really aloof and vaguely disappointed in Eridan opening up about the topic.
Eridan is at the very least a gender-nonconforming, and perhaps genderfluid, agender, some other flavor of nonbinary such as demigirl, or simply a crossdresser. Either way, he's canonically gender queer now, which I think suits him because of previous points of evidence such as him playing "A Game for Girls" like FLARP, his fashion sense, and some ambiguity on whether or not he wears lipstick.
Thanks! I'm not super practiced at noticing these things, so I appreciate the explanation. It's definitely a topic I'm sure I'll change my mind on very often in the future.
Honestly most of those clues are kinda removed from context.
With the dude one, its clear it was the endearment part of it that bothered her, as she said 'or anything else'. If she was actually insulted she would have told him to fuck off, this IS Vriska after all. The F thing is kinda the only one that survives scrutiny but their society is kinda more female oriented and she is extra pressured to be vicious. And weirdly enough a lot of her dialgoue is weird. Like it first implies she has gender dysphoria, but then backpeddles by showing the statements were about something other than gender. Not even like she is hiding it, its just that the focus is her identity.
"what my lusus doesn't call me' wasn't about her lusus misgendering her but because Vriska tried to change her name to mindfang. She literally says she wanted to be called mindfang either before or after the statement. Its really weird back and forth.
Thing is we got gender dysphoria cloak and dagger over here, but when it came to Eridan it was pretty out in the goddamn open. It is very confusing and distracting.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:40 pm
by JakeMorph
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
calliope directly challenges the assumed heterobinariness of cherubs in the epilogues:
we've no reason to believe the pronouns aranea uses for the cherubs' parents are somehow indicative of the cherubs' own culture, and the fact that aranea uses phrases like "bisexual reproduction" and says that human reproduction is "exclusively heterosexual" actually in fact indicates that gender and sex sciences are not aranea's area of expertise.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:03 pm
by Kidpen
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:40 pm
Kidpen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:19 pm
I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't think Cherub sexual biology is a topic we really know enough to talk about. Every cherub we know of, including Callie's and Caliborn's parents, has been described of using gendered pronouns (at first, at least). Aranea's exposition claims that Cherubs are always born as one male and one female, possibly implying an actual physical difference.
They might even only be able to reproduce heterosexually. I don't think that's necessarily the most likely situation, but there's also no reason why it wouldn't be true.
(standard disclaimer, which is even more valid when I'm talking about gender stuff: I might be stupid. Tell my if I'm being stupid.)
calliope directly challenges the assumed heterobinariness of cherubs in the epilogues:
we've no reason to believe the pronouns aranea uses for the cherubs' parents are somehow indicative of the cherubs' own culture, and the fact that aranea uses phrases like "bisexual reproduction" and says that human reproduction is "exclusively heterosexual" actually in fact indicates that gender and sex sciences are not aranea's area of expertise.
Oh shoot I had forgotten about that. That makes sense in general. Still feels like a bit of a retcon to me but not a huge one and honestly it's not like it's making the story worse or anything, so whatever.
Actually, could you explain why that implies Aranea isn't super knowledgable in that area? Sorry, I'm still a bit new to gender ideas and I don't know a ton about them.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 pm
by JakeMorph
sure!
for one thing, Aranea's statement that
for humans reproductive relationships are exclusively heterosexual essentially ignores the fact that there are transgender women who can have children with other women, transgender men who can have children with men, etc., etc. she conflates sex with gender, indicating that she's not familiar with the difference between biological sex and gender identity that is commonplace these days.
it COULD easily be argued that Aranea is referring to 'biologically' heterosexual reproduction here, i.e. the combination of female sex cells and male sex cells to create an embryo. and that makes sense! but what she says next makes that seem kind of absurd in context:
for trolls they are 8isexual, for leprechauns they-
(though we never actually hear what she intends to say next, the common assumption is that she's going to say they're homosexual, based on context and the fact that caliborn and andrew later discuss the leprechauns apparently all being the same sex.)
this makes no sense if she's talking about 'biological' heterosexuality, because 'biological' bisexuality doesn't make a lick of sense. to put things as simply as possible, bisexuality requires two sexes or genders to be attracted to. but if both of these "sexes" are capable of forming reproductive pairs with either other "sex", how could they possibly be different "sexes"? that would make them all serve the same reproductive purpose. that's not bisexuality, that's hermaphroditism.
biological homosexuality would make even less sense. homosexuality - "same" sexuality - is, obviously, an attraction to the "same" sex. there can be no "same" sex if there is only one sex! again - that would be hermaphroditism. if we are to assume there are also "female" leprechauns - worth noting that the members of the felt are only called "males" because
BECAUSE [CALIBORN] SAYS THEY ARE - who are ALSO homosexual, then the males and the females would not be reproducing with each other. and in that case, what even makes them the same species?
though we have no reason to believe Aranea is flat out "WRONG" about the things the says, per se, she uses all sorts of nonsensical terminology that would imply she doesn't have the right cultural context to properly be able to identify and talk about the workings of the biology and identity of alien species. being from a race that traditionally organises itself into binary genders, it would make sense for her to see that cherubs have two distinct sexual morphs and think "hey, that's just like the 2 genders on my planet!"
for what it's worth, shelby cragg, the artist who did calliope's drawings and worked closely with andrew for a lot of the cherub parts of the comic, also thought that aranea's gender assumptions about the cherubs were sort of off base, but you'd have to take my word for it bc the blog they used at the time is long gone.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
by MorganMustDie
Given we've only got one (and a half if you count Caliborn and Calliope's parents I guess) proper examples of Cherub culture, we haven't got much of a sample size to speculate on, BUT I feel we're looking at this very human-centric
We know that Cherubim twins always have a benevolent and malevolent pair, and that these two fight for dominance. Given the different body shapes we see and the fact that they are referred to as "brother and sister," we could also surmise that there are male and female cherubs, despite being hermaphroditic. Callie chalks this up to influence from Earth, but I think there could still be a biological element.
Callie mentions that Caliborn was the "brother" and themselves the "sister" specifically because Caliborn took masculinity very seriously. Perhaps, as well as one being violent and one docile, cherub twins naturally have one that is feminine and one that is masculine? The dichotomy then becomes a quadchotomy in which a given cherub child can be made up of violent/masculine and docile/feminine or violent/feminine and docile/masculine. This, while not tied to physical sex characteristics in anatomy in regards to genitalia, manifests instead as a different body type post-domination, and the switching of the roles once the egg has been laid
It is an alien species after all, so realistically they could still have "sexes" perse, but that the effects that these have on individual Cherubs manifest themselves much differently
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:33 pm
by JakeMorph
what you're describing is exactly how aranea explains the cherubs
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:53 pm
by Kidpen
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 pm
sure!
for one thing, Aranea's statement that
for humans reproductive relationships are exclusively heterosexual essentially ignores the fact that there are transgender women who can have children with other women, transgender men who can have children with men, etc., etc. she conflates sex with gender, indicating that she's not familiar with the difference between biological sex and gender identity that is commonplace these days.
it COULD easily be argued that Aranea is referring to 'biologically' heterosexual reproduction here, i.e. the combination of female sex cells and male sex cells to create an embryo. and that makes sense! but what she says next makes that seem kind of absurd in context:
for trolls they are 8isexual, for leprechauns they-
(though we never actually hear what she intends to say next, the common assumption is that she's going to say they're homosexual, based on context and the fact that caliborn and andrew later discuss the leprechauns apparently all being the same sex.)
this makes no sense if she's talking about 'biological' heterosexuality, because 'biological' bisexuality doesn't make a lick of sense. to put things as simply as possible, bisexuality requires two sexes or genders to be attracted to. but if both of these "sexes" are capable of forming reproductive pairs with either other "sex", how could they possibly be different "sexes"? that would make them all serve the same reproductive purpose. that's not bisexuality, that's hermaphroditism.
biological homosexuality would make even less sense. homosexuality - "same" sexuality - is, obviously, an attraction to the "same" sex. there can be no "same" sex if there is only one sex! again - that would be hermaphroditism. if we are to assume there are also "female" leprechauns - worth noting that the members of the felt are only called "males" because
BECAUSE [CALIBORN] SAYS THEY ARE - who are ALSO homosexual, then the males and the females would not be reproducing with each other. and in that case, what even makes them the same species?
though we have no reason to believe Aranea is flat out "WRONG" about the things the says, per se, she uses all sorts of nonsensical terminology that would imply she doesn't have the right cultural context to properly be able to identify and talk about the workings of the biology and identity of alien species. being from a race that traditionally organises itself into binary genders, it would make sense for her to see that cherubs have two distinct sexual morphs and think "hey, that's just like the 2 genders on my planet!"
for what it's worth, shelby cragg, the artist who did calliope's drawings and worked closely with andrew for a lot of the cherub parts of the comic, also thought that aranea's gender assumptions about the cherubs were sort of off base, but you'd have to take my word for it bc the blog they used at the time is long gone.
Thank you! This was very helpful, and every time I thought of an objection you proceeded to clear it up for me.
I will say that I suspect when Andrew was writing Aranea's exposition he did in fact mean both that there are separate sexes for trolls and that they can each reproduce with either. Also that there are female leprechauns who also reproduce with only other female leprechauns. But that honestly would be a stupid objection because if you're taking the story serious enough to ask these questions at all you basically have to take it serious enough to assume that things make sense, and obviously that doesn't make sense once you look at it more closely.
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:08 pm
by MorganMustDie
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:33 pm
what you're describing is exactly how aranea explains the cherubs
Perhaps, but I'm more theorising that it's not something Cherubs are born with, ie they're not
born as male or female but that those characteristics manifest later in their life post-domination depending on their childhood
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:43 am
by TH4NK YOU B3N
thorondraco wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm
iii think you are forgetting that time he literally gunned down Gamzee, multiple times, despite him having no threat to his existence. He is literally an incarnation of negative emotion and behavior.
If seeing that clown doesn't immediately trigger your fear response, there must be something wrong with you.
calamityCons wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:19 pm
I didn't notice anything in Sollux's route that gave any kind of hint toward him being trans,
I mean, we were in the same thread, but I guess you ignored me. Sollux gave Kanaya those pictures of him because she wanted to look at those clothes she made when they were younger. Kanaya makes it clear that we're not supposed to invade his privacy by looking at those pictures, and they laugh at Sollux's old haircut, shooting the shit about how the way Sollux used to look doesn't suit him at all. Also, Kanaya explicitly tells you that Vriska cursed her bulge. Coding for Kanaya as a trans woman goes way back.
GA: Im A Girl Not A Boy
You were too busy being sad about Solnaya to notice the coding, even though Kanaya having made clothes for Sollux suggests that she had a crush on him before he came out. Her meddling nature carries over from back then, even if what they have is strictly platonic now.
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 pm
and in that case, what even makes them the same species?
leprechaun eggs hatch into leprechauns of the other sex. easy.
maybe they're plants.
post edited for language
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:18 am
by MorganMustDie
unrelated to anything this word makes me feel weird
Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am
by TH4NK YOU B3N
Sorry, I phrased it that way as a reminder that trolls are not hermaphroditic, but also because I was thinking of these two images.
(edited for pronouns)
I have changed my phrasing.