Homestuck.XYZ 2.0

Friendship is the real power. Also green sun and retcon powers, but friendship lets you take those powers to a new extreme!!

But for the more serious takes.

We learned that there are other beings like hussie in universe and they kinda locked him in a closet cause the mofo messed so much up.

We learned the Ultimate dirk is in conflict with them too. He isn't powerful enough to overpower them yet but he can still fuck with what they are doing and they have to struggle to keep him out.

Dirk miiiiight be able to travel anywhere he fucking wants into any story he wants. We also might have a younger dirk jumping around atm.

Retcon powers do in fact change shit and majorly and it allows someone to act inspite of a narrator. It kinda brings BIG question to what John is capable of. Also the only people seemingly able to inhibit their is people with narrative powers, but even then....

Horror terrors might be a lot more chill than we imagine.... WE haven't had the payoff of that meditation stuff with feferi but neither do we know the reader's name. Sequel was joked/hinted at. It seemed a bit too important.

We also know the consequences of 'dissipation'. Black out, when reality itself breaks and the story just can't work. Meaning there is something that needs to be done still. That or Dirk has completely wayleighed rose's visions.

We might also have a name for what the Candy universe is, and a third form of timeline. A Locked timeline, a timeline that has the 'weight' of canon but isolated from canon to keep it from damaging canon or being overwritten. Candy and the Reader's timeline are Locked timelines, though Candy's isn't fully 'locked' as it were. Though perhaps that is what Calliope meant at the epilogue of the epilogue. She 'locked' the timeline at that moment. But that means one can Unlock it as well or, also, one could take advantage of the timeline's stuff before it IS locked.

The Green Sun is basically made of the energy of Meta or something. Narrative influence itself. This kinda makes sense. Its why it shines on every session, to control its influence, and it also why the like of Doc seemingly could control the narrative and Lord English seemed to favored by the timeline. The sun IS made from the unvierse frogs.
It also explains why Jade was so sidelined so consistently in the story. If she became more aware of the power she had, she might be tempted ot use it to change things. Course john went and did that anyway.

This last bit is speculation. It sounded like the reader BECAME the green sun basically. So it might meant the timeline was inside of him. Or at least he took a bit of that power internally and became something else. It also sounded like some ultimate self stuff happened here but the green sun gave him the power to survive it. Regardless though he would be sucked into the Black Hole in either outcome. And if anyone could 'unlock' things?

Pesterquest didn't quite fold into Hs^2, but the reader easily could someday. Its neat that they used it to give characters some more meat to them and give us some candy as well, and still help explain some lore stuff about the universe this alll takes place in.

Another detail i forgot. In the void, non of these author insert guys can see you. Meaning that AYsha in universe would not know what went on in the dream, just that suddenly the reader remebered friendsims and somehow hooked up with Aradia.

Hell maybe when it comes to direct horror terror communication its the same.

sounds like the lostbelts in fate

ZingDev wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:22 pm

sounds like the lostbelts in fate

not famliar. what is lostbelts?

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:21 pm

ZingDev wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:22 pm

sounds like the lostbelts in fate

not famliar. what is lostbelts?

dead end timelines that are locked off from what the world believed to be is "not canon"
or at least in fate these are timelines where humanity has fucked up so badly they are just cut off from parallel worlds (canon).

ZingDev wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:57 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:21 pm

ZingDev wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:22 pm

sounds like the lostbelts in fate

not famliar. what is lostbelts?

dead end timelines that are locked off from what the world believed to be is "not canon"
or at least in fate these are timelines where humanity has fucked up so badly they are just cut off from parallel worlds (canon).

interesting.

MSPAR is definitely a thief of time. They even hint at it in Feferi’s route, “procrastination is the thief of time.”

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm

We might also have a name for what the Candy universe is, and a third form of timeline. A Locked timeline, a timeline that has the 'weight' of canon but isolated from canon to keep it from damaging canon or being overwritten. Candy and the Reader's timeline are Locked timelines, though Candy's isn't fully 'locked' as it were. Though perhaps that is what Calliope meant at the epilogue of the epilogue. She 'locked' the timeline at that moment. But that means one can Unlock it as well or, also, one could take advantage of the timeline's stuff before it IS locked.

What I'm still puzzled about is how, regardless of the 'locked' timeline status of PQ, the PQ universe managed to steer clear of the grip of the reckoning and of paradox-clones. Nanasprite makes it clear in Act 3, and Karkat confirms in Act 4, that the reckoning is not dependent on when the characters play the game, but is rather a fact of spacetime itself. The countdowns do not summon the reckoning, but merely warn the players of the reckoning destined to take place. How come 'not playing the game' prevents the reckoning altogether? And what about the reckonings of the hundreds of other players who were alluded to in A1 and A2 via Rose's walkthrough who played the game in offshoot canons of their own? Wouldn't their reckonings have liked, completely obliterated Earth?

Jade's route offers the possibility of an explanation for the Alpha Earth. Perhaps destroying the code of the game, or the code of its distribution, can prevent the imminent destruction of the Earth. But the Beta's Earth would... still be obliterated.

Similarly, John creates himself and all of the Alpha/Beta teens via playing Sburb. If he never plays the game, he never reaches the lab in the Veil, and neither he nor his friends/family exist. Is the implication that he will still make his way to the veil, in some manner beyond our knowledge? Or maybe... Aradia created them all via her own time travel/canon altering ability?

What am I missing???

Also, hi all, first post on this forum, very excited to come back into fandom during quarantine after having 'just' kept up with updates since HS officially ended. Lovely to meet you all.

dev wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm

We might also have a name for what the Candy universe is, and a third form of timeline. A Locked timeline, a timeline that has the 'weight' of canon but isolated from canon to keep it from damaging canon or being overwritten. Candy and the Reader's timeline are Locked timelines, though Candy's isn't fully 'locked' as it were. Though perhaps that is what Calliope meant at the epilogue of the epilogue. She 'locked' the timeline at that moment. But that means one can Unlock it as well or, also, one could take advantage of the timeline's stuff before it IS locked.

What I'm still puzzled about is how, regardless of the 'locked' timeline status of PQ, the PQ universe managed to steer clear of the grip of the reckoning and of paradox-clones. Nanasprite makes it clear in Act 3, and Karkat confirms in Act 4, that the reckoning is not dependent on when the characters play the game, but is rather a fact of spacetime itself. The countdowns do not summon the reckoning, but merely warn the players of the reckoning destined to take place. How come 'not playing the game' prevents the reckoning altogether? And what about the reckonings of the hundreds of other players who were alluded to in A1 and A2 via Rose's walkthrough who played the game in offshoot canons of their own? Wouldn't their reckonings have liked, completely obliterated Earth?

Jade's route offers the possibility of an explanation for the Alpha Earth. Perhaps destroying the code of the game, or the code of its distribution, can prevent the imminent destruction of the Earth. But the Beta's Earth would... still be obliterated.

Similarly, John creates himself and all of the Alpha/Beta teens via playing Sburb. If he never plays the game, he never reaches the lab in the Veil, and neither he nor his friends/family exist. Is the implication that he will still make his way to the veil, in some manner beyond our knowledge? Or maybe... Aradia created them all via her own time travel/canon altering ability?

What am I missing???

Also, hi all, first post on this forum, very excited to come back into fandom during quarantine after having 'just' kept up with updates since HS officially ended. Lovely to meet you all.

That is kind of the whole point. It doesn't follow the timeloop at all and continues to exist despite ignoring the loop, was sustained even as paradox space itself started to fissure as the powers that be tried to hold it alll together.
You could also say that they tried to cut it off from the rest of paradox space, these timelines, and that is why the meteors never came, trying to keep it at bay like isolating an infection, until the reader's actions started to affect all of paradox space.
There were several points were several points where its implied that everythign was happening as it was supposed to outside of the timelines. We had jack noir dsetroying troll prospit. But seemingly we had a scenario where even that was being altered when in one timeline a version of Tavros was outside of his frog, even when he was supposed t obe Dead at that time. Cleaved in two.
We have no idea what happened there. It might have caused the rest of paradox space to become unstable too at that point as what they were doing was bleeding into paradox space itself.

The only solution was ultimately to tie the timeline into a self deleting loop. But of course the Reader found an out.

Candy is almsot exactly the same way.

dev wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm

We might also have a name for what the Candy universe is, and a third form of timeline. A Locked timeline, a timeline that has the 'weight' of canon but isolated from canon to keep it from damaging canon or being overwritten. Candy and the Reader's timeline are Locked timelines, though Candy's isn't fully 'locked' as it were. Though perhaps that is what Calliope meant at the epilogue of the epilogue. She 'locked' the timeline at that moment. But that means one can Unlock it as well or, also, one could take advantage of the timeline's stuff before it IS locked.

What I'm still puzzled about is how, regardless of the 'locked' timeline status of PQ, the PQ universe managed to steer clear of the grip of the reckoning and of paradox-clones. Nanasprite makes it clear in Act 3, and Karkat confirms in Act 4, that the reckoning is not dependent on when the characters play the game, but is rather a fact of spacetime itself. The countdowns do not summon the reckoning, but merely warn the players of the reckoning destined to take place. How come 'not playing the game' prevents the reckoning altogether? And what about the reckonings of the hundreds of other players who were alluded to in A1 and A2 via Rose's walkthrough who played the game in offshoot canons of their own? Wouldn't their reckonings have liked, completely obliterated Earth?

Jade's route offers the possibility of an explanation for the Alpha Earth. Perhaps destroying the code of the game, or the code of its distribution, can prevent the imminent destruction of the Earth. But the Beta's Earth would... still be obliterated.

Similarly, John creates himself and all of the Alpha/Beta teens via playing Sburb. If he never plays the game, he never reaches the lab in the Veil, and neither he nor his friends/family exist. Is the implication that he will still make his way to the veil, in some manner beyond our knowledge? Or maybe... Aradia created them all via her own time travel/canon altering ability?

What am I missing???

Also, hi all, first post on this forum, very excited to come back into fandom during quarantine after having 'just' kept up with updates since HS officially ended. Lovely to meet you all.

These are some good points, i hope i can clear some up for you:

Point 1: The reckonings all have a key factor that you have missed, although understandable since there are a lot of factors of the game, the reckoning starts when the Black King (or Sovereign Slayer apparently) obtains the White King's staff which immediately starts the meteors falling. When void sessions are explained, it is re-stated that the Kings are in a stalemate, as they are in the beginning of any session, and the thing that guarantees that WK will lose his staff is the first prototyping the game receives i.e. no prototyping, no reckoning, unless outside forces are used (see the meteor Dave, Rose, ect. are on for alpha kids' "reckoning")

Point B: The ectobiology paradox, well the only way to make it work is if you go by the time travel logic of "you can't change the past/things that already happened." Basically, John and co. exist and you can't make them un-exist because instead of destroying a timeline/universe instantly by creating a world-ending paradox, events just adjust and play out accordingly. Lame I know, but other than "it works because reasons" I got nothing.

edit: I realized I forgot the other session from beat kids' earth. In pesterquest (I believe Dave's route) SBURB beta is unanimously criticized because it "didn't work on launch" so evidently MSPA reader inadvertently screwed up every other copy of the game by stopping the "one true" session between John and Rose (and Dave and Jade)

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 pm

There were several points were several points where its implied that everythign was happening as it was supposed to outside of the timelines. We had jack noir dsetroying troll prospit. But seemingly we had a scenario where even that was being altered when in one timeline a version of Tavros was outside of his frog, even when he was supposed t obe Dead at that time. Cleaved in two.

So, series of events that need to take place for Jack to get into the troll session: The exile station at rose's house needs to be on earth, it is not due to there not being a reckoning. Jack needs to be on earth from the frog temple capsule, debatable as it existing (at full working capacity) and contents within the capsule that may or may not be erased are questionable at best. Jack uses fully powered station to jump into the previous (troll) session. Jack can fly due to the 3rd prototyping, he cannot.

As for the existence of Prospit (Jade and Tavros) in pesterquest: SBURB/SGRUB does not create the incipishere, it allows the destined players to enter the incipishpere and initiate the sequences that need to play out due to the fate that paradox space decides needs to be because it said so. Meaning that Prospit, Derse, and the other things that don't come in with player planets are all just, kind of, sitting there.

Essentially this:

foreverFlummoxed wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 11:56 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 pm

There were several points were several points where its implied that everythign was happening as it was supposed to outside of the timelines. We had jack noir dsetroying troll prospit. But seemingly we had a scenario where even that was being altered when in one timeline a version of Tavros was outside of his frog, even when he was supposed t obe Dead at that time. Cleaved in two.

So, series of events that need to take place for Jack to get into the troll session: The exile station at rose's house needs to be on earth, it is not due to there not being a reckoning. Jack needs to be on earth from the frog temple capsule, debatable as it existing (at full working capacity) and contents within the capsule that may or may not be erased are questionable at best. Jack uses fully powered station to jump into the previous (troll) session. Jack can fly due to the 3rd prototyping, he cannot.

As for the existence of Prospit (Jade and Tavros) in pesterquest: SBURB/SGRUB does not create the incipishere, it allows the destined players to enter the incipishpere and initiate the sequences that need to play out due to the fate that paradox space decides needs to be because it said so. Meaning that Prospit, Derse, and the other things that don't come in with player planets are all just, kind of, sitting there.

Essentially this:

And somewhere out there is the Troll frog as well.
Basically its the power of Retcon. It somehow forced paradox space to sustain the timeline no matter how illogical and contradictory it got. It might be why there is that degree of separation between paradox space and the universe of the frogs.

Though presumably timelines still have a presence in paradox space, there are still mechanics we don't know. Maybe its a layers of reality type situation, which has been implied, and doomed timelines are in the beta layer of reality. That seems the most likely i think. And the doomed reality fade into the furthest ring. Fuck far as we know the furthest ring is made of destroyed timeline juice.

That might explain the issue with these timelines actually. Because of retcon's effects on reality, it is trying to place two alpha realities either overtop each other or side by side.
so the timlines have to be locked and isolated somewhere. Candy is in the black hole, and the Reader timeline is locked inside of the green sun... Which means it could also be locked inside of the black hole as well.

Fuck maybe we are dealing with the men in black scenario where universes are objects.... Wait. WAit that is already true. The frogs. Does that mean there is a greater frog of all?

foreverFlummoxed wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 11:56 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 pm

There were several points were several points where its implied that everythign was happening as it was supposed to outside of the timelines. We had jack noir dsetroying troll prospit. But seemingly we had a scenario where even that was being altered when in one timeline a version of Tavros was outside of his frog, even when he was supposed t obe Dead at that time. Cleaved in two.

So, series of events that need to take place for Jack to get into the troll session: The exile station at rose's house needs to be on earth, it is not due to there not being a reckoning. Jack needs to be on earth from the frog temple capsule, debatable as it existing (at full working capacity) and contents within the capsule that may or may not be erased are questionable at best. Jack uses fully powered station to jump into the previous (troll) session. Jack can fly due to the 3rd prototyping, he cannot.

As for the existence of Prospit (Jade and Tavros) in pesterquest: SBURB/SGRUB does not create the incipishere, it allows the destined players to enter the incipishpere and initiate the sequences that need to play out due to the fate that paradox space decides needs to be because it said so. Meaning that Prospit, Derse, and the other things that don't come in with player planets are all just, kind of, sitting there.

Essentially this:

Okay, wow. To recap: the Reckoning doesn't happen because the Sburb Beta does defunct when Rose and John don't play it; the kids still exist because Paradox Space can't erase their existence without implications on the timeline so deep that the fabric of spacetime would essentially dissolve; and retcon powers extend, in some ways, beyond the influence of paradox space. Got it. Thank you for explaining, fF. (I'm rereading homestuck with my partner while following the post cannon content, and we recently watched S Descend, and I completely missed the Black King/White Kind dynamics there. Thanks for clarifying).

W/re to Prospit and Derse just kind of sitting there, that would explain why Jade /was/ dreaming pre- MSPAR's intervention. What happens to Prospit/Derse when SBURB doesn't get played? Tavros can still get there w/MSPAR's help, but Jade stops dreaming... Essentially prospit is like 'oh you're not destined for this ish anymore so you can't get here on your own,' right? Dang.

Thank you both for your explanations.

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 12:53 am

Fuck maybe we are dealing with the men in black scenario where universes are objects.... Wait. WAit that is already true. The frogs. Does that mean there is a greater frog of all?

The greatest frog is Hussie's Frog-themed computer that is definitely not a thing I just made up

dev wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 9:08 am

W/re to Prospit and Derse just kind of sitting there, that would explain why Jade /was/ dreaming pre- MSPAR's intervention. What happens to Prospit/Derse when SBURB doesn't get played? Tavros can still get there w/MSPAR's help, but Jade stops dreaming... Essentially prospit is like 'oh you're not destined for this ish anymore so you can't get here on your own,' right? Dang.

That would make sense, as Jade only gets back to Prospit using an established connection between the frog temple and the dream planets and the retcon powers can force events that shouldn't/can't happen to be the outcome, which is how Tavros suddenly wakes up on Prospit (there's even a glitch effect, similar to an "out of bounds glitch" signifying that the reader did something impossible) and yes, it's technically a doomed timeline when that happens, but it still did happen, as Aradia's route (or even HS proper) established.