THE GAMZEECOURSE THREAD

[Cyber-Fan]

He also talks here in act 6: https://www.homestuck.com/story/6776

[calamityCons]

Sweet catch, guys! I don't know how to really interpret what Gamzee is thinking in either of those situations though, because he's just very angry at Aranea in the first link and in the second link that plea for mercy is immediately followed up with him beating the shit out of Terezi and the Game Over flash.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Oh, right, the reason he's honk-mute is because all the trolls on the meteor (and Vriska) took the guidance of their dancestors, and Kurloz is a mime. I mean, that's still barely any information.

haha i remember the gif of pixel kurloz sliding over to get vriska's coat

I guess, to get a bit more speculative and expand on that, Gamzee is desperate for approval. He'll do anything you ask him to do, as long as it doesn't put him in direct harm, if he wants to be your friend. Equius is unsettled by this, so they play make-believe at power dynamics in a way that's less extreme than a lifestyle change. Kurloz, who will straight up brainwash his ex-girlfriend just to make her run errands, wouldn't have such ethical qualms. And Kurloz is a Lord English worshipper.

I mean, that still doesn't explain anything because he's doing evil of his own volition. It just happens that he's looking for guidance because "God is dead" or some shit.

Sorry, I'm really stupid when sleep deprived. It wouldn't have taken this long to make this post if I had just taken a nap before making it. I'm struggling to find words for basic concepts. It's ridiculous.

[calamityCons]

Maaaaan that whole conversation makes me sad. All of the dialogue Gamzee has in that pesterlog just conveys Gamzee as friendly, kind, listens to what his friends tell him, wants to show faith in the people in his life. There's not even a goddamn HINT that he's in any way an ass. Why can't the smelly ass clown friend be a smelly ass clown friend.

[BrobyDDark]

Even back when Gamzee pleading for mercy was a new update, I thought it strange how genuine it was, and how abrupt his turn to straight up trying to kill her again became. I always thought with, how it was presented, and how manipulative he was in Murderstuck, this meant he was capable of being saved. Like he hadn't fully lost it.

Murderstuck Gamzee never would have immediately gone back to beating Terezi up. He would manipulate her and use mind-games to lull her into a sense of security, and THEN beat her to death. Murderstuck Gamzee was slipping into a state of uncontrollable rage. Meanwhile, here it's like he was just...angry, then the pain of Terezi trying to kill him broke him out of that state. He plead with her because his friend was killing him and he didn't know why. Then, happy she had stopped, showing there was still good blood between them... He snapped again. As if it's not something he can control. Similarly, him yelling at Aranea seems to just be his state when not dealing with the cherubs or being a shit-stain on Homestuck's storyline.

Hell, looking back at Karkat papping him and using his Moirail Powers, Gamzee doesn't seem cognizant of what the fuck is even going on. He fucking lost it, unable to fully control who he attacks anymore. Then, when you think about his role in The Epilogues (eugh), he straight up says to Jane that being around her pacifies him (or at least helps him be pacified.)

I think Troll Biology just fucked this dude up, and Hussie's fast and loose writing fucked him up even more. Lotsa missed opportunies with the Gamzee shit.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Oh, right. I was thinking of Gamzee raising the cherubs and how he just seemed to be straight-up a good dad, if a little sneaky. And also of Gamzee putting his dead friends in kernels, not.. whatever the fuck this is.

I thought, at the time, this weirdness was something about Gamzee being manipulative, but his eyes start flashing colors. I... think that means chucklevoodoos? We see Meulin under the influence of Kurloz's chucklevoodoos, and her eyes start flashing colors. Sure, they don't flash yellow to red, but Meulin is a ghost with whited-out eyes. They might look different on an alive troll.

Homestuck really is a puzzle. Mind control is stupid.

Then, when you think about his role in The Epilogues (eugh), he straight up says to Jane that being around her pacifies him (or at least helps him be pacified.)

Did you just make a breastfeeding joke?

[BrobyDDark]

Then, when you think about his role in The Epilogues (eugh), he straight up says to Jane that being around her pacifies him (or at least helps him be pacified.)

Did you just make a breastfeeding joke?

I was trying to avoid that, actually, but I guess you can't avoid the truth.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I was trying to search for the word "pacify" in Homestuck but I didn't find anything. That's why I asked.

[BrobyDDark]

I was trying to search for the word "pacify" in Homestuck but I didn't find anything. That's why I asked.

He says something about milk keeping him steady or some shit before Jane kicks his ass out. Apparently it disgusted her, so either he was referring to tig ol bitties, breast milk, or Jane was supplying him with a milk that kept him from wanting to murderize his friends, meaning he doesn't care about her but what she could provide him to pacify himself? It's been a year since I read candy, but he seems to not want to be the shitbeast he was in Murderstuck and Game Over

[calamityCons]

It is truly impossible to tell whether Gamzee is a true shitbeast pretending not to be to get what he wants, or if he is actually genuinely a sweet and caring person forced to do evil by forces he can’t control. Either way, we are never privy to what goes on in his head. We only really follow his perspective when he’s dicking around in his oversized sandcastle at the beginning of Hivebent and afterward we just see the things he says and does.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Sigh.

There are two messiahs fighting inside you.

One is the desire for everyone to be friends and to have an unforgettable luncheon. The other is the knowledge that all love is conditional and that you are so abhorrent that you will never meet the conditions of people who truly get to know you, so you have to defraud others on the kind of person you are if you want to be taken care of, and you need to believe that you are being taken care of, else you'll become homicidal, spiteful of those who rejected you. You are a terrible liar, which means anyone who does fall for your trickery is a fool and an idiot, which means that, even if you would like to return their generosity, you don't respect them enough to love them. So you're fated to be romantically unhappy, falling in love with people who hate you but tolerate your presence, and falling in hatelust with those that want nothing to do with you.

You are addicted to pleasures of the flesh.

You squeeze Jane's boob and you don't even care.

[egg]

sexy sexy clown man

[BrobyDDark]

sexy sexy clown man

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

ugh i just realized after writing this that the motherfucker is a mother fucker

nsfw, the discussion of Gamzee, kink, and how it relates to his insecurity

Show

The codpiece, since is shown on the baby cherub, is diaper-coded. It's also sexual, because it is phallic. We get the impression of Gamzee as someone who is both infantilized and hypersexualized. Stupid and helpless, yet scary and seductive. He wants to be soothed and coddled of to an extreme. The Cg/l shit Jane and Gamzee have is the logical conclusion of that and Jane's Dad-Matriarch rapist fantasies. It's the synthesis of their psychosexual symbols.

That isn't, like, an example of Gamzee being an evil asshole, by the way. It's just one of many things that people like Karkat would openly insult him about. Karkat's the kind of person who will openly talk shit about what bothers him about you as a counter-signal, to show that he trusts you enough to be open about how he really feels about you. The relationship between Crabdad and Karkat is one where they squabble, but in the end Karkat is grateful for all his fussing. Tsundere. Gamzee, when insulted, only senses a personal attack, and he's too afraid of backlash to give Karkat a signal that no, he's actually hurt by all this. Karkat needs that sort of signal, because he doesn't want to make anyone genuinely uncomfortable, but he'd also probably express that in a way that's still an insult.

Jake's also victimized, but his fantasy is more about being a damsel in distress. A dandy in distress. His fantasy isn't being raped, but being rescued from a violator. From being close to, but not actually, in danger. So he's less attached with Jane's bossiness than Gamzee, even if both relationships are unhealthy. Jake's in an abusive relationship, but he's not codependent the way Gamzee is, so he's eventually able to rescue himself.

Jake's also not fond of (real) Dirk's controlling, monogamous nature, because it prevents him from taking risks in the first place, but this isn't a Dirk discourse thread so I'm done here.

[calamityCons]

This is extremely uncomfortable and sensitive subject matter and I am not certain if it should be here due to being information gleaned from the epilogues I think??? I'm, really upset and confused by this direction of conversation and I'd like to not talk about it please.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I'm here to talk about Gamzee and controversial shit. This is clearly both? I don't know what to tell you.

The gist is that, basically, even though we both wish he had been treated better by the narrative, I like Gamzee more than you. His friends keep insulting him and you're saying you prefer the Gamzee who would dissociate and put up with it, and I think that's a cruel stance to have. It's cruel to say that he should appreciate being kicked in the gut with a smile.

I've spoiled it for now. Sorry, I thought it was appropriate segue into this topic because egg called the clown man sexy.

[calamityCons]

Annotation 2020-01-11 143855.png (27.32 KiB) Viewed 17515 times

The stuff about Gamzee and Jane's sexual relationship and sexuality in general is detailed mainly in the epilogues as far as I know. The Gamzeecourse thread is currently in the Homestuck forum.

I mean, it's a blurry distinction and an annoying situation to put up with when the sequels to the original are pretending to not be canon, but still.

[BrobyDDark]

There doesn't need to be a separate thread for Epilogue Shitbeast stuff. I think it's fine to keep discussion of the shitbeast's Epilogue stuff in his designated thread.

If something makes you uncomfortable, I'd say just tune it out. The discussion of Gamzee's sexuality won't last forever-- it's a conversation that has to happen at some point since it goes a long way in unravelling the fucked up mindscape this ass-clown has.


So long as it doesn't get too in-depth or Weird, anyways...

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

There's Epilogues stuff in the Dirkcourse thread, because most of the stuff to have Dirkcourse about is in the Epilogues. Less so in the Vriscourse thread, because she doesn't play as big of a role in it. Gamzee has a lot to discourse about in both Homestuck and the Candy Epilogue. It's not practical to split up the thread like that. (even if it would be thematically fitting) I've already hidden it.

Using examples from the text to justify my claim that Gamzee has motivation to lash out after realizing that his friends weren't kidding when they said his religion sucked should not be confused for being horny on main. Most of what I said wasn't even about kink, but how he stays in a relationship that is obviously abusive, not just to Jake, but to him. I feel the need to spell out that Gamzee is being abused in that relationship, because other characters will victim-blame him because they don't know the nitty-gritty.

HARRY ANDERSON: god! he always makes sure to point out that he’s politically neutral in literally every sentence that comes out of his mouth, even though he’s *definitely* still fucking my aunt.

He claims to be politically neutral because he's fucking Harry's aunt. Gamzee was demoted from Kismesis to Auspistice because he doesn't have the spine to disagree with her. Because he's sad. He's sad and a goat. The Epilogues made the 4chords quote "Can't sleep without holding on to a motherfucker" actually sad. Thanks Calliope.

https://www.homestuck.com/story/4827

He talks in this page, but not as dialogue. I think it's to retain ambiguity as to whether he's sober or high.

[JakeMorph]

while I think describing it as cg/l is probably a little extreme, I did also get the impression that the specific nature of gamzee's relationship with jane was indicative of some kind of infant complex or want of a mother figure, stemming from his lack of a proper lusus growing up. i don't know what it says specifically about gamzee but i think it could be reflective of the complex relationship with motherhood the trolls on patriarchal alternia have in general, and among the patriarchy-enforcing highblood castes in particular?

the "politically-neutral" position gamzee maintains by being intimate with jane certainly reflects to an extent the position the subjuggulators entertained on alternia, leading the land dwellers while also doing the bidding of the condesce. placing corrupt mother figures at the head of society seems to be part of scratch's modus operandus, with gl'bgolyb's position on alternia being pretty much repeated by the condesce on earth (who in turn had gl'bgolyb as her own mother: generational?)