wwe out

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Hussie says that Shrek is an Earth movie, so I think this is confirmation that everyone is dead or something similar.

[JakeMorph]

eridan wasnt watching shrek in the episode though he was watching shrek 2

[calamityCons]

Trolls have their own Will Smith, too. This is just another collection of continuity errors imo :/

[JakeMorph]

i guess i may as well contribute my actual opinion about this episode

it was total joke and not in the fun way. the parts that actually were jokes were great (shrek) but the rest of it seemed like it was jokes that had been taken seriously without ANY sense of irony whatsoever. what was the bit about the money at the beginning? just an awkward beat that added to or said nothing about his character. Ha Ha He Is Rich And Likes Money.

dont even get me started about the gender shit, which not only sets a really awful precedent for trans characters in the visual novel series (lanque, vriska, and now eridan? greeeeaaaat - AND he then quite soon after goes on to talk about how everyone hates him for how forward he is all the time! fantastic!) but just completely did not need to be in an episode about eridan. for starters it obviously just originated as a march eridan joke with all the dresses in his wardrobe, which i thought most people agreed was fucking stupid years ago. second of all: contrasting eridan being genderwoke with him being class conservative is completely moronic! not only does it gloss over his obviously terrible attitude toward women IN THE COMIC ("moirail zone"??????) but it also lazily just skips right over the ways gender and class uniquely CANONICALLY intersect in alternian society, because fuck porrim's entire character, right? which just reminds me of how aggravating it is that this shit about gender is being applied to fucking ERIDAN and not a character whose role in society might actually make their opinions on gender interesting, like, say, kanaya?

and then right after all this we get eridan getting invasive about what sollux' genitals look like???? and on the SAME DAY as andrew putting out a joke about sollux also being transgender? pure fucking class.

the fight with sollux and a bit of the aftermath was fun, but it failed utterly to make up for the rest which i just found to be badly written generally. eridan's character wasn't there in his dialogue, and there were parts where it was hard to ignore the fact that the quirk had obviously been put into the text after the fact and was missing in patches. the contrivances leading up to the sollux and eridan fight were completely out of nowhere, too, and i completely agree with everyone else in the thread who thinks the episode failed to find direction. not to mention eridan is the first sea dweller in the ENTIRE visual novel series, which is something weve been having dangled in front of our faces like a carrot on a fishing rod the entire time, and it turns out hes just Some Guy who mentions being racist one time and happens to live on a boat sometimes? his actual place in society played no part in the game at all, nor did much of his character, for that matter.

i don't even like eridan as a character and i found this whole thing to be insulting.

[sigmatic]

I'm enjoying these routes but at times it's like, it feels like there are a bit too many "in-jokes" which really pull me out of it sometimes. I'm all for meta and fandom jokes but too much and it starts to make the entire thing feel less... meaningful? That's the best I can describe it, anyway.

[egg]

Right, so, I've always found Eridan to be a relatable character. I was born in a relatively wealthy family, for my country's standards (I am nowhere near rich), had overprotective parents who refused to let me get hurt or cry under any circumstances, and was even more privileged due to other social factors that will remain unmentioned. This caused me to grow up as kind of a giant dick, especially as I was on the computer pretty much since I was 13, and the fact that I learnt English at a young age caused me to associate myself with a few bad groups. This caused me to become even more of a dick. A very lonely, due to my parents' bad decisions, and very afraid, asshole. The kind of person who you'd call a drama queen, or even an incel. Someone who could only find happiness in mocking and deriding others, and constantly reinforcing his ego, which due to intense self-hatred was merely a lie anyway.
These factors led to a lot of interesting life experiences, and though I'm still learning, I'd like to say I've mostly grown out of the asshole stage (with certain exceptions). And what that sort of thing taught me is that most people critically lack self-awareness, and self-awareness is not only the best way to write sympathetic asshole characters (if you were not a dick yourself, at some point in your life), but also grow as a person and understand the effect your mentality has on yourself and others, because everyone has problems caused by situations they can control, and problems caused by their own mindset which they could change anyway, a choice to foster and fall into unhealthy thoughts, even if it's subconscious. And that really says something about the people who write routes for Pesterquest, because clearly they don't give a rat's ass about Eridan or how he might think.

See, most people seem to think that Eridan's mean because he chooses to be rude. But being an asshole is a mindset. You don't go out there and say "today I'm gonna be a clingy dick to my friends". You see the world in that way - people don't understand what it's like to be afraid of yourself and others, the combination of factors and philosophies that intersect to make a caustic person, and especially the combination of these that can make both a caustic, and lonely, and clingy person, which Eridan and I both are (or were, at certain points. Honestly, even to this day I'm not sure). People don't understand it because they don't have to live it, and I perfectly understand that. It's no one's job to empathize with or gain an awareness of people that they personally don't like. However, if you wanna write an asshole character, and you wanna do it well, you have to understand. You have to at least try to understand, to challenge yourself with a mindset you are unfamiliar with.

But clearly there was no such understanding in his route. People tried to produce sympathy for a character that they don't even get the mentality of, and it's obvious to see they didn't try either. It felt like they wanted to create a character that embodied their personal political hot takes, then have him do an Avatar-style fight against Sollux. A big problem with this fandom and even with the professional side that writes for Homestuck is an inability to create characters that they do not relate to, to step outside of their comfort zone and attempt to enter a mentality they've either never had or barely touched on their lives. Do you know what really improved my writing ability? Writing friendly characters, characters who do caring actions and love their friends simply because they can, characters who seek no intrinsic reward or recognition for their actions, which was the exact opposite of who I was and in many ways exhibits a worldview that still contrasts with mine. I used to write exclusively female characters, then I took a risk and began writing male characters, which I was uncomfortable with doing for personal reasons, and that also improved my writing ability. I wrote crapsack, depressing settings as a way to cope, and then I took a risk and began writing happier settings. Guess what the fuck happened to my skills as a writer?

The obsession with shoving some sort of epic hot take, making characters take personal decisions about their identities that align with those of the writers', and the blatant character deviations that others have pointed out both in this thread and the ones for past PQ routes only serve as very blatant evidence that nobody writing these routes actually wants to take risks with their writing and actually improve themselves. This is not speculah, it is criticism. The worst part of PQ by far is this. And it would be improved if there was a desire to make each character distinct and have an exploration of their thoughts here. We didn't learn about Eridan. We didn't learn about tyrianbloods. We got a Sollux fight, and Shrek.

For fuck's sake, what happened? What happened to characters people weren't afraid to hate, but were nuanced and at least interesting to explore? Eridan was already kind of a caricature, admitted in the book commentary, a parody of lonely incel 4chan boys. You could have used this opportunity to build on his character, expand on his mindset, the expectations put on his life by his high status - heck, what the privileges granted by his high status did to his mentality. Nope! We got a joke based off of March Eridan, which as far as I know wasn't even something everyone liked anyway? What's the big idea here? If you just want to make characters that are extensions of yourself, why not just do a Friendsim 2? If you don't want to explore these characters in a serious fashion, why even write these damn routes anyway? Why write anything, if you don't want to take risks, step out of your comfort zone, and try to understand the world around you better? There's not even a statement, a message, any purpose that would justify reading through this even if you don't care about the characters. Even Homestuck tried that, in its final moments, which many people disliked anyway. Shit, Homestuck's entire popularity and much of the things people like about it owe itself to risk, innovation, and the author doing stuff he might not have been personally into.

I'm so fucking tired. Read Vast Error, it's better than this trash.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

The whole thing about Eridan saying he can't wear dresses in public because it would be bad representation is another meta-dig like Lynera saying it's problematic for her to be attracted to boys or Rose saying she writes wizards to cope. It sacrifices characterization to send a Message. So, I get that Eridan wouldn't learn that kind of thing to be woke but why is he lecturing me? Just draw him in a dress. I'm not stopping you. The budget is stopping you. Tf am I being blamed for?

In the original comic, Eridan is socially isolated for doing something he hadn't even done yet. What reason does he have to lose his friends here, if this supposedly a non-SGRUB AU.

Didn't we learn that Sollux was trans in his own route? I think I brought up that this was the subtext and everyone groaned.

I'm enjoying these routes but at times it's like, it feels like there are a bit too many "in-jokes" which really pull me out of it sometimes. I'm all for meta and fandom jokes but too much and it starts to make the entire thing feel less... meaningful? That's the best I can describe it, anyway.

https://wheals.github.io/formspring/for ... 5754195482

It breaks the sixth wall badly.

@egg: looked at the VE discussion thread and opinion seems split. afraid of trusting again. continuing reading stuff i've already started is less of a commitment for me, even if i am tired.

[JakeMorph]

Didn't we learn that Sollux was trans in his own route? I think I brought up that this was the subtext and everyone groaned.

oh, shit, i guess we did. i only played sollux today so i didn't have time to think about it but that all flew over my head.

hmm i think that makes eridan's "what's your dick like!!" outburst even worse!

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I assumed that Eridan didn't understand the implication of the rumor. I mean, why would Sollux tell Eridan of all people?

[JakeMorph]

i don't think it really matters what eridan is and isn't aware of, harassing ANYBODY about what their dick looks like just makes his whole Really Woke About Gender Completely Unironically thing look really fucking dumb. it's like the writer was kind of just looking at the entry for 'woke about gender' in a dictionary and then closed the book once those 2 paragraphs about gender were over.

don't get me wrong, i think getting on someone's case about dick rumours is totally in character for actual eridan. it's just not a good look for an eridan that's supposed to secretly have a master's degree in sex sciences.

[Generalrabogolfo]

you all seem to forget that gender in alternia means jack shit and everyone has a bulge

[JakeMorph]

not only is that not fucking true IN THE COMIC but it very obviously does not fucking apply in an episode that MAKES A POINT of having one of the characters point out the existence of gender inequality on alternia?????

[Generalrabogolfo]

exactly! it doesn't make sense for them to be talking about a problem that does not exists! glad you're starting to see.

[JakeMorph]

HEY ASSHOLE, STOP PLAYING GAMES FOR GIRLS.After the scratch, o+ur wo+rld co+ntinued to+ be matriarchal upo+n superficial o+bservatio+n, but was subject to+ a co+nsiderably mo+re sinister, clo+aked fo+rm o+f patriarchal tyranny all alo+ng.my ideas aboUt gender were entirely inflUenced by my time watching earth. [...] my brother took mascUlinity qUite serioUsly. [...] oUr view of hUman cUlture indirectly inflUenced alternia’s development

don't be deliberately obtuse

[egg]

I don't give a shit about Homestuck character gender stuff. It's whatever for me. But I agree with you that it seems completely backwards to make Eridan "woke" and then want to see Sollux's troll genitalia for some reason. I'm sure you could make him have both traits in a way that's actually interesting for the character, such as Eridan trying to be woke for good boy points without actually being so, like many of the section of the Internet he's specifically meant to be a parody of (per the book commentary) are like, but it seems that wasn't the intention here if past routes are any indication.

[JakeMorph]

i completely agree! eridan being woke for good boy points would be exactly in line with the kind of person he is in the comic, but pesterquest goes to great pains to indicate that apparently isn't the case.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

This is going to become a rehash of broken troll worldbuilding, isn't it?

I liked the discussion about Eridan's gender until JakeMorph started talking about "bad precedence," playing exactly into the hands of the writers. A lot of people who claim about "forced diversity" seem to think bad writing is caused by the presence of minority characters, and I don't buy into that, and that was pretty much what Eridan was talking about.

I guess I'm just smarter than other people? I guess I'm immune to propaganda, because I'm not getting trolled?

I am very big on distinguishing myself from people who dislike the same things from me for different reasons.

[thorondraco]

i don't think it really matters what eridan is and isn't aware of, harassing ANYBODY about what their dick looks like just makes his whole Really Woke About Gender Completely Unironically thing look really fucking dumb. it's like the writer was kind of just looking at the entry for 'woke about gender' in a dictionary and then closed the book once those 2 paragraphs about gender were over.

don't get me wrong, i think getting on someone's case about dick rumours is totally in character for actual eridan. it's just not a good look for an eridan that's supposed to secretly have a master's degree in sex sciences.

Honestly its called real world. You can have someone really woke about something, ESPECIALLY something they personally identify with, but hypocritically attack someone else regarding that same thing.
That is the thing. ERidan is woke with something he identifies with but denies is a thing with most people. It kinda goes into his whole Prince aspect. He wants to be a girl but can't bring himself to come out with it, or at lesat wants to damit he doesn't identify as either gender. He wants magic to be real but rejects it as fake despite enjoying it. Anything that has anything to do with the Hope aspect he rejects. With rejecting reality as it is and trying to change it in some way.

[ThePungeonMaster]

I'll be real, when I first played through the route, I actually really liked it. I thought it was hilarious. But the more I've thought about it, the more flaws I've found in it. First among them being how his hemospectral bias contradicts his gender bias. And in the route this is just boldfacedly addressed like it's nothing. Granted I have met people with equally flawed worldviews, so painting it in that light to me seemed to satirize people who actually thought that way. Then I thought about it some more, and realized all the holes this view of gender pokes in Alternian worldbuilding. That "Stop playing games for girls" line came to mind. Then more flaws started popping up like pimples on a pubescent teens face. Most flagrantly how it presents that Eridan is a dick, but doesn't go into any detail why, doesn't try to explain it, and doesn't try to redeem it. It's done in a very "deal with it" manner, which becomes all the more obnoxious when you realize how ineffectual his dickishness is, and not actually indicative of his character.
Really the most crippling flaw of PQ is it's flagrant misunderstanding of it's playerbase. The authors think that they're trying to appeal to the face-value, gender nigh-obsessed twitter crowd, when in reality it likely comprises a minority percent of all homestuck fans. I doubt that the writers intend to misrepresent the characters, but they seem to be ignorant of if the routes have actual substance so long as it supports their message. And that's what really gets me upset. Not that Eridan's route isn't great, but why it isn't, how it could have easily been greater, and how the writers appear to be ignorant of any criticism leveled their way.

[thorondraco]

I'll be real, when I first played through the route, I actually really liked it. I thought it was hilarious. But the more I've thought about it, the more flaws I've found in it. First among them being how his hemospectral bias contradicts his gender bias. And in the route this is just boldfacedly addressed like it's nothing. Granted I have met people with equally flawed worldviews, so painting it in that light to me seemed to satirize people who actually thought that way. Then I thought about it some more, and realized all the holes this view of gender pokes in Alternian worldbuilding. That "Stop playing games for girls" line came to mind. Then more flaws started popping up like pimples on a pubescent teens face. Most flagrantly how it presents that Eridan is a dick, but doesn't go into any detail why, doesn't try to explain it, and doesn't try to redeem it. It's done in a very "deal with it" manner, which becomes all the more obnoxious when you realize how ineffectual his dickishness is, and not actually indicative of his character.
Really the most crippling flaw of PQ is it's flagrant misunderstanding of it's playerbase. The authors think that they're trying to appeal to the face-value, gender nigh-obsessed twitter crowd, when in reality it likely comprises a minority percent of all homestuck fans. I doubt that the writers intend to misrepresent the characters, but they seem to be ignorant of if the routes have actual substance so long as it supports their message. And that's what really gets me upset. Not that Eridan's route isn't great, but why it isn't, how it could have easily been greater, and how the writers appear to be ignorant of any criticism leveled their way.

Actually no it doesn't. There are plenty of people out there that while think 'hey being gay is okay' are also flagrant transphobes who think transgender people need jesus. There are gay people who hate trans people, trans people who hate gay people. Eridan is by no means unusual, especially as his 'wokeness' when it comes to gender is purely selfish, cause it is something that involves himself. Though it IS something important enough that he hasn't tried to leverage it to get with someone.

Also at this point Eridan is the ONLY character who has actually without beating around the human tulips until they are minced salad material, actually stated to be nonbinary or transgender. Or at the very least is questioning that about himself. Even the Vriska route does not at ALL confirm she is transgender jsut nudges it. And as they are not afraid of saying 'hey this character is transgender or nonbinary or a stack of cats in an overcoat' it kinda shows that they couldn't actually do that, tobrelone or not.

I think there is a lot of worry and miscommunication with several members of the Whatpumpkin staff and the fandom. Some loaded statements here or there, but largely with a select but unnamed few. Thing is we gotta remember that these people are hired by Hussie. Even if some of them are not afraid to get into a fist fight with the fandom, they are employees and they are working together here. For hussie.
However that twitter behavior, which does not equate to professional behavior unless you are a Deranged oompha loopa a bunch of idiots made president, has made so many people hypervigilant and fearful. I kinda blame how the internet culture works cause so many people seem to think someone saying something stupid should get their career ruined and thrown into the streets. We should see if the opinions impact the work and so far, from what i see, nothing about the more opinionated employees of Whatpumpkin seems to have made a negative impact.

also him being non-binary does not mean he isn't a piece of shit and doesn't give him goodboy points. He is an asshole and manipulative, trying to use a 'debt' to ensure the reader dose not bail on him, a plan that could only ever work on the thembo friendslut. He is still a bad person. And i think the point of the route is to show that he has no good reason to be a bad person. No murderous cannibal spider mom at least. Bu society asks him to be a bad person and thus he is, and expects things to go his way. Cause that is 'reality', as he has rejected 'hope'. Fears it even as he has suppressed his true nature. Which magnifies how nasty he can be.
Hope seems to engender a certain level of selfishness. Mainly cause its about applying one's vision of the world. But that is classpect stuff.

Another unspoken detail i think should be noted. In a lot of cases a lot of these characters are at their lowest points after Sgrub fell through. The reason why we end up seeing a super vulnerable Vriska, who seems to care that she is killing trolls t ofeed her lusus suddenly? Cause we fucked up her plans. We ruined Sgrub, ruined what she was planning, clearly, to use and try to reconnect with as many people as she could. And left her in a situation where she realized she was trapped in this life, trapped in this world she hated.

It is ooc but in a way that makes sense. Suddenly a lot of these characters are more open to talking bout this shit cause they are in a situation where their escape from Alternia had been ruined. And all they see is their eventual deaths, enslavement, or forced to keep doing things they hate for the rest of their lives. And for many of them, those lives were going to be extremely long.

Now i do think that Eridan's and Feferi's have their flaws maybe couple more than is usual. But i think people overreacting to a degree. Personal views mixing with fears of overstep by the creators and so on so on.