Theory, the Retcon was not necessary for the timeloop to exist.

[thorondraco]

And it in reality usurped a prior darker timeline where Lord English wins.

Basically if you think about it, they didn't need the Retcon. They were going into a situation where they were going to lose and be enslaved by the Empress. The only thing that stopped that from happening was Game over, Aranea crashing into the harbor. Basically they originally were meant to lose to the Empress. They just had no choice but to go along with her if they had any hope of finishing the game.

Basically my case and point, is Dave exists. All they would need after being enslaved is for the Empress to have access to a place and time where she was mislead to believe is a point where Lord English. Because the Empress wanted Unvierse C to exist so she can recreate her species. Wanted to force Roxie to recreate the Matriorb too. I think she also wanted to recreate humanity too without making the same mistakes again, so she has two entire species to rule over.

So basically Dave's existence can without question replace the Retcon powers. The juju itself, is required. But its power to mysteriously give people teleporting retcon powers isn't. This would of course lead to the total slaughter of the Beta kids. They were basically tpk by Lord english without the green sun, and only won thanks to Davepeta's intervention. Not only is there the green sun but the factors that would require Davepeta to exist are far from met. The game was rigged before they even played and they would die. The ghosts would either die completely or hide forever in the cracks and corners of paradox space. Think Jade would be the last one standing thanks to the green sun, but even then, she would fall.

I think this quote from Hs^2 aptly explains why it seems like Retcon was meant to always happen.

DIRK: Our actions from this point on will form part of a crucial inner mechanism, tucked away behind the tightly sealed metallic service hatch of reality.

DIRK: One which will be of our own creation, but which by all practical considerations might as well have always been there.

DIRK: And if we're successful, the distinction won't be significant enough to matter to just about anybody.

DIRK: They'll be too busy getting their mind's dicks collectively blown.

This kinda indirectly states my theory here. John's retcon powers effectively made it that by all practical considerations, it almost doesn't matter that there was a prior timeline. It ceased to be the moment John got Retcon powers. But at the same time the evidence of its prior existence remains. For without Retcon, the loop would exist still but would have a darker end.

Albeit an end likely not ending with the Furthest ring being sucked into a black hole.

[MorganMustDie]

Basically if you think about it, they didn't need the Retcon. They were going into a situation where they were going to lose and be enslaved by the Empress. The only thing that stopped that from happening was Game over

yes but. Game Over is a thing that happened regardless. Sure, if Game Over hadn't happened, then the timeline might have been completed. But it did happen. And, ergo, the timeline was not completed. The retcon undoes Game Over, and so the time loop can be carried through.

It's like saying "If I hadn't gone completely broke, I'd be running a business, so you should treat me like I'm a CEO"
the thing that stopped them from succeeding happened. ergo, you can't say "they didn't need the reset to win, because if this they hadn't failed, they would have won"
there's some real weird logic at play here

[thorondraco]

Basically if you think about it, they didn't need the Retcon. They were going into a situation where they were going to lose and be enslaved by the Empress. The only thing that stopped that from happening was Game over

yes but. Game Over is a thing that happened regardless. Sure, if Game Over hadn't happened, then the timeline might have been completed. But it did happen. And, ergo, the timeline was not completed. The retcon undoes Game Over, and so the time loop can be carried through.

It's like saying "If I hadn't gone completely broke, I'd be running a business, so you should treat me like I'm a CEO"
the thing that stopped them from succeeding happened. ergo, you can't say "they didn't need the reset to win, because if this they hadn't failed, they would have won"
there's some real weird logic at play here

It happened only because of the repeatedly stated to be Reality Changing Retcon powers. Only because of them. And that is my point, the power to ursurp canon should be impossible by how we understand paradox space. But it turns out if you shove your dick into a juju or somehow not die from Ultimate Self cancer, you can make paradox space your bitch. To presume otherwise is to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Literally john nearly destroys Homestuck by being a depressed Sadboi. By all means and narrative prompts, he should have gone after Caliborn. But he didn't and paradox space didn't Rocks Fall his timeline.

I think we should apply the Three pillars here. Retcon and Narrative powers are essentially the ability to Assign or Reassign the three pillars. And make paradox space act upon that assignment or reassignment. John reassigned the timeline's parameter's towards defeating Lord english and surviving the fight.

Oh my god that is why Vriska became (Vriksa) O.o Despite her being Vriska first, John dubbed her that and she became it. He assigned her the role of secondary Vriska!

Err, anyway control truth and you control EVERYTHING. Because true=alpha. If i am not mistaken relevance=known and essential=plot points. This shit is too powerful for paradox space to let out willingly. So either this was a fluke caused by a series of void events orchestrated to unleash this power upon paradox space, or Lord english ALSO had narrative power to begin with and this was the only means whomever lords over paradox space to counteract him. Which explains why John was meant to die at the end, and why both Calliope and Dirk wanted him gone too. Its freaking terrifying cause we don't know if Lord english had narrative powers ever, but if he did it makes the fact irrelevant cause whatever timeline existed before he gained them no longer exists.

Still you can't overwrite when it doesn't exist yet. So a timeline had to exist before John's retcon nonsense. And that in itself is important to note cause it again puts doubt to how we view its nature. For is it actually Determinism, when Free Will can alter the original outcome?

Paradox space thus lives up to its name. Determinism deigned because of the free will of an individual.

To sum it all up. Retcon and Narrative powers can overwrite the Alpha and this is a proven fact. And that PAradox space has no means to dealing with an individual who can define the Truth of the alpha timeline. AT the very least, the REtcon powers and their utilization implies something is amiss to how the Story went down...

also a bit of stipulation. John cannot comprehend the narrative despite his influence os he can't 'create' what happens and contorl the outcome properly. He generates a series of cause and effects that he can't make sense of. Dirk has more defined control so while his powers are far from as sweeping he can meticulously tailor the cause and effect to his own ends.

[MorganMustDie]

I'm really not following the first point of your logic here

Game Over doesn't happen because control has been usurped. Hussie is still in control at that point (even though I'm not sure how much faith I have in your whole "Hussie is acting like John has taken control away from him so that John can run the story" pov) meaning that Game Over, without John happening to have stumbled into retcon powers, is a definitive full stop point. It can't be avoided without John having the retcon. Which means they need the retcon to fix the loop.

Much like train etiquette, it's super simple stuff

[Dream Muttman]

You're probably forgetting that Gameover only happens because John disappears from his couch when he gets the retcon power, conveniently leaving behind the Ring of Life for Gamzee to find and bring back to Aranea. I very much doubt the Condesce would've managed to enslave anyone with John in play, though, so I don't buy that it would've led to a darker timeline as is, either.

[thorondraco]

You're probably forgetting that Gameover only happens because John disappears from his couch when he gets the retcon power, conveniently leaving behind the Ring of Life for Gamzee to find and bring back to Aranea. I very much doubt the Condesce would've managed to enslave anyone with John in play, though, so I don't buy that it would've led to a darker timeline as is, either.

So her literally brainwashing the primary healer and Jade, who literally could beat the shit out of everyone else by herself, and being able to control Jack and the Mendicant thanks to the same powers she is using to brainwash jade, somehow doesn't make her able to completely overpower the entire team. And somehow John level the odds?

Nah man, she had the total advantage because this was planned for eons in advance. This was what was meant to happen.

And again, it happens because John gains retcon powers. Giving Aranea an opening to invade it because suddenly the story wasn't going as it should..

Actually maybe that IS why she did what she did. Aranea... she knew more than she ever let on, the entire time. So what if she realized she could break the timeline by acting now, while John was affecting the timeline by his absence? It didn't matter what she did, and she knew it, she had to ruin the timeline then and there to prevent Lord English from ever existing to begin with.

But seriously, what could they have done against The empress, Jade, Jane, Noir and Mindecant? John would definitely try to rally but they couldn't bring themselves to harm Jade, and even if they could she was a god basically. They would struggle to beat any one of these characters, short of Jane, and all five of them would go after them at once. And even then they weren't in any shape to fight thanks to Gamzee fucking with Terezi, Rose becoming an alcoholic, and Dave not wanting to fight Lord English at all. John wouldn't be able to do anything to change that and even then, the odds were too stacked. There are just too many ways that the Empress could force their compliance.


EDIT-
I actually just remembered John literally says he is changing the narrative, can feel that he is doing so.

[thorondraco]

I'm really not following the first point of your logic here

Game Over doesn't happen because control has been usurped. Hussie is still in control at that point (even though I'm not sure how much faith I have in your whole "Hussie is acting like John has taken control away from him so that John can run the story" pov) meaning that Game Over, without John happening to have stumbled into retcon powers, is a definitive full stop point. It can't be avoided without John having the retcon. Which means they need the retcon to fix the loop.

Much like train etiquette, it's super simple stuff

Game over happened because of Retcon powers. It removed John from the playing field, literally, and thus kept him from being captured like everyone else. It allowed Aranea to gain access to the ring of void which allowed her to cause Game over.

Also let me link you this line

https://www.homestuck.com/story/6404

Basically i forgot that John literally says he is changing shit. That is about as blatant as you can get in the tell department. True his awareness is a lot more limited, but he can still feel the changes he makes. Also fuck, he even says that the "New stuff that will happen, will be like it was always supposed to happen." Dirk paraphrases him in Homestuck^2.

I do think that i get what you mean. You are saying because Hussie was still writing the comic and making panels in universe, narrating too, that he was still in control over what was happening. I would say though that his power over the narrative diminished and dwindled when he died. Usurped by Lord english who killed him to prevent him from, well, changing the story he had already set in motion. Which was his victory basically.

So obviously Hussie did not have the power to change the story in a way that works with paradox space's normal rules. He no longer had the power to make it that lord english would lose. I guess being dead diminishes your narrative powers. Which might be why people awakening to their ultimate self kinda just, die.

It is possible he is the guy who set the Juju stuff into motion though. That or something or someone gave the doofus the idea to do that. But as John said, as he sensed, this shit can completely alter the Narrative if not wielded carefully. So its possible that Hussie, and or a grander manipulator he met in the Void, used this a 'break the glass' moment cause Hussie had TOTALLY fucked up at this point and couldn't undo his mistakes. Either way, at this point, Hussie is either in the black hole or double dead.

[thorondraco]

I'm really not following the first point of your logic here

Game Over doesn't happen because control has been usurped. Hussie is still in control at that point (even though I'm not sure how much faith I have in your whole "Hussie is acting like John has taken control away from him so that John can run the story" pov) meaning that Game Over, without John happening to have stumbled into retcon powers, is a definitive full stop point. It can't be avoided without John having the retcon. Which means they need the retcon to fix the loop.

Much like train etiquette, it's super simple stuff

To be clear i get what you are saying. Hussie didn't wake up one day and saw the story typing itself and drawing itself on his computer, have a mental break down and streaked through the streets for the remainder of homestuck. He created homestuck and still does, if using a legion of fan minions to do his work now as he stalks the shadows as a deranged Eboy, hiding candy bars generated by non other than the Monkey Paw from the Simpsons like a Deranged Mutated Hatechild of an easter bunny and an Evil Jinn.

So yea in reality terms he never lost control of it. But its clear that in universe his self there, the living Self insert joke, lost control of everything and got killed by Lord english. Death of the author and said author, while i guess able to show us homestuck, lost his power to control it. Probably why he got killed by Lord English cause one of the only ways for English to die was for Hussie to come up with a convoluted in universe solution. Which I think he had yet to concoct because he literally made English invincible and had ensured the sunovabitch had no weaknesses and even the ones he did have, like the gunwand and white sword, are made moot by being too powerful. It was too late by the time English caught up.

Literally he was only beat because Retcon powers lead to one of the core foundations of his power to being removed. It could only be the green sun, his immortality was too tied to the timeloop. Otherwise he would have just been killed. And it was at the cost of paradox space it looks like.

But yea even in story John says he was changing stuff he shouldn't be able to change... I think the story makes it really hard to separate the meta and story, as the meta is part of the story. But there should still be a degree of separation between actual reality and the story like structure of paradox space.

[MorganMustDie]

So yea in reality terms he never lost control of it. But its clear that in universe his self there, the living Self insert joke, lost control of everything and got killed by Lord english. Death of the author and said author, while i guess able to show us homestuck, lost his power to control it. Probably why he got killed by Lord English cause one of the only ways for English to die was for Hussie to come up with a convoluted in universe solution. Which I think he had yet to concoct because he literally made English invincible and had ensured the sunovabitch had no weaknesses and even the ones he did have, like the gunwand and white sword, are made moot by being too powerful. It was too late by the time English caught up.

I've always liked the school of thinking that this represented the idea of Homestuck being taken away from Hussie and held up by bad fans. Since Caliborn and Lord English represent the cancerous, damaging side of Homestuck's fanbase, it seems prominent that the author's self-insert was killed by that representation, considering that by then, Homestuck was known less as Hussie's cool little web story and more as "that thing with the really cancerous fanbase."

Again, Hussie finds the weirdest fucking ways to parallel real-world things that happened to him personally.