I hate the whole "canon discussion" the series has taken

[sorbicCondition]

This isn't to say everyone has to accept it all into their interpretation or reading or whatever, if you want to ignore parts of Homestuck proper I... really don't care. Nobody remembers the entire comic anyway, and if someone wants to, I dunno, have characters that don't say slurs or whatever that's fine.

You've kind of hit onto the "point," I think. Canon is just interpretation. If some random fanfic informs your view of some random character then that's your canon.

Obviously official work is going to have the most weight for the larger community, but it doesn't have to. You can think literally whatever you want about Homestuck and if it's satisfying for you then hell yeah.

[furrylatula]

Obviously official work is going to have the most weight for the larger community, but it doesn't have to. You can think literally whatever you want about Homestuck and if it's satisfying for you then hell yeah.

yeah!!!!!

especially with the epilogues, because theyre SO divisive within the fandom, there is a very large group of people who is willing to accept your view that the epilogues were bullshit and ignore them wholesale. they produce headcanons, essays, fanart, fanfics, fanventures, fangames, all based on the shared enjoyment of pure og homestuck.

this isn't like declaring 'murderstuck was ooc and bullshit and i refuse to engage with it' where you'd have a hard time finding people willing to accept that as the shared canon (albeit not impossible, look at gamzee stans). you really can just ignore this part of homestuck and keep on like nothing happened

[ArchmageIsACat]

Imo the line between official stuff and fan stuff being canon seemingly strengthening is more a symptom of fans digging in their heels and insisting the discussion over canon and taking a "choose your own" approach to canon is pointless and disingenuous then it is any result of the whatpumpkin writers insisting that the epilogues and hs2 are canon
esp since they're almost constantly insisting the opposite, that canon doesn't matter (more specifically that its a fake thing that shouldn't matter) and that taking a choose your own approach to it is a much better way to do that.

I definitely would like to see homestuck made public domain one day but I think that acting like the canon discussion is a useless one to have until that happens is unhelpful at best and harmful to it being made public domain at worst.

[furrylatula]

......hmmmm, i just thought of something.

is it possible there's a disconnect between people who view their fandom engagement as "curative" (essays, analysis, endless bickering about what exactly went down in act 7) vs those who view it as "transformative" (who gives a shit what officially happened all i remember is theyre gay and i love them)?

im trying to figure out how i would unscientifically poll this because its a hard thing to like.....boil down into a google form but if i COULD i feel like wed get some insight

[JakeMorph]

sounds like a fun idea for a give-your-opinion style topic at the very least.

[Auntie]

Imo the line between official stuff and fan stuff being canon seemingly strengthening is more a symptom of fans digging in their heels and insisting the discussion over canon and taking a "choose your own" approach to canon is pointless and disingenuous then it is any result of the whatpumpkin writers insisting that the epilogues and hs2 are canon

I can honestly dig that. Not gonna lie, I don't think I've ever been in a fandom space that's been as... focused on canon and canon compliance as post epilogue HS fandom before? I'm sure it's not a Homestuck exclusive phenomenon, I've heard enough stories about people getting accosted at comic shops or whatever crap, but most of my fandom experiences otherwise have had a very "rotating buffet" approach to canon.

[BrobyDDark]

Yes, I very well could ignore the Epilogues and Homestuck2 and pretend it ended in Act-5 before everything went nuts (more so, anyways.) But that doesn't change the reality of it, or the literal definition of canon.

can·on1
/ˈkanən/
noun
1.
a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the formation of the biblical canon"

neither of the definitions you've provided for canon apply to Homestuck at all... the definition of the word "canon" you're using did not exist ten or twenty years ago and was invented to describe modern media like star trek, or star wars, which have a million different spinoffs - cartoons, novels, films - which were contributed to by many of the people responsible for the original media and published in an official capacity but aren't considered "canon" because they just aren't from the original show. this kind of thing is commonplace and has long been widely recognised among discussions about "canonicity".

Admittedly, I'm not in the Star Trek fandom nor have I seen any discussion of what is and isn't considered canon, but I think saying that a lot of supplementary material, and sequel series that connect to the universe's lore isn't canon just because it isn't the original series is...whack.

However, the Star Trek discussion is ultimately irrelevant- The Epilogues and Homestuck2 directly tie into the lore of Homestuck, and are direct and official continuations to its story. I believe it's fair to say that makes it canon

-snarp-

You've kind of hit onto the "point," I think. Canon is just interpretation. If some random fanfic informs your view of some random character then that's your canon.

Obviously official work is going to have the most weight for the larger community, but it doesn't have to. You can think literally whatever you want about Homestuck and if it's satisfying for you then hell yeah.
[/quote]

But then you have to consider terms like headcanon, which already covers personal canon views, but don't change the True Canon. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with headcanon (so long as one doesn't try and kill the author, but then Death of an Author is a whole other beast) but it stays as headcanon until an author comes in and says "shit son, sounds tite, lets patch that hoagie into the literary quilt" or whatever they would say to that effect.

[thorondraco]

Yes, I very well could ignore the Epilogues and Homestuck2 and pretend it ended in Act-5 before everything went nuts (more so, anyways.) But that doesn't change the reality of it, or the literal definition of canon.

can·on1
/ˈkanən/
noun
1.
a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the formation of the biblical canon"

neither of the definitions you've provided for canon apply to Homestuck at all... the definition of the word "canon" you're using did not exist ten or twenty years ago and was invented to describe modern media like star trek, or star wars, which have a million different spinoffs - cartoons, novels, films - which were contributed to by many of the people responsible for the original media and published in an official capacity but aren't considered "canon" because they just aren't from the original show. this kind of thing is commonplace and has long been widely recognised among discussions about "canonicity".

Admittedly, I'm not in the Star Trek fandom nor have I seen any discussion of what is and isn't considered canon, but I think saying that a lot of supplementary material, and sequel series that connect to the universe's lore isn't canon just because it isn't the original series is...whack.

However, the Star Trek discussion is ultimately irrelevant- The Epilogues and Homestuck2 directly tie into the lore of Homestuck, and are direct and official continuations to its story. I believe it's fair to say that makes it canon

-snarp-

You've kind of hit onto the "point," I think. Canon is just interpretation. If some random fanfic informs your view of some random character then that's your canon.

Obviously official work is going to have the most weight for the larger community, but it doesn't have to. You can think literally whatever you want about Homestuck and if it's satisfying for you then hell yeah.

But then you have to consider terms like headcanon, which already covers personal canon views, but don't change the True Canon. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with headcanon (so long as one doesn't try and kill the author, but then Death of an Author is a whole other beast) but it stays as headcanon until an author comes in and says "shit son, sounds tite, lets patch that hoagie into the literary quilt" or whatever they would say to that effect.
[/quote]

Presumably hussie has done just that himself. Seen what people have come up with in terms of theories and seeing if any are interesting. There is however also the layer of if speculation and headcanon gets close to the actual intent of the author. Foreshadowing and shit.

[TC]

......hmmmm, i just thought of something.

is it possible there's a disconnect between people who view their fandom engagement as "curative" (essays, analysis, endless bickering about what exactly went down in act 7) vs those who view it as "transformative" (who gives a shit what officially happened all i remember is theyre gay and i love them)?

im trying to figure out how i would unscientifically poll this because its a hard thing to like.....boil down into a google form but if i COULD i feel like wed get some insight

There's definitely a disconnect, I don't think "Curative" and "Transformative" are the correct words though, plenty of people who fall into the former category make transformative works as well such as fanfiction or fan stories or what have you. Maybe "Intellectual" and "Emotional" would be better fits.

[Prime]

......hmmmm, i just thought of something.

is it possible there's a disconnect between people who view their fandom engagement as "curative" (essays, analysis, endless bickering about what exactly went down in act 7) vs those who view it as "transformative" (who gives a shit what officially happened all i remember is theyre gay and i love them)?

im trying to figure out how i would unscientifically poll this because its a hard thing to like.....boil down into a google form but if i COULD i feel like wed get some insight

You're quite possibly onto something and I think it would be a fascinating avenue of insight to pursue. To be quite honest the great debate of dubious canonicity is super polarizing and wholly unappetizing, so personally I'd rather curl up in the fetal position and disengage. On one hand, the story of Homestuck is worth the study to understand it better. On the other hand, fanon has always done its thing regardless of strict canon. Homestuck has *officially* tied these concepts of canon and fanon together in an attempt to strengthen and empower the average fan, but instead it seems like they've just dealt a caustic wound at the seams when the average fan can use that juxtaposition to deflect and deny the equally valid realities of other fans by pointing to the continuation of the story itself while simultaneously saying "nothing matters anymore".

When did we go wrong? Where else can we look for answers but within?

[furrylatula]

There's definitely a disconnect, I don't think "Curative" and "Transformative" are the correct words though, plenty of people who fall into the former category make transformative works as well such as fanfiction or fan stories or what have you. Maybe "Intellectual" and "Emotional" would be better fits.

im very at that distinction. its possible to make intellectual fanworks and emotional analysis and that dichotomy splits the fandom waaaaay too neatly along pre-existing gendered sterotype lines for my tastes (the feebleminded emotional shipper fangirl vs the stone cold logical gametheory type motherfucker).

but then again maybe dichotomies are just inherently shit? what to do

[PilotBlackSmith]

this is Danganronpa V3 all over again

[JakeMorph]

I don't think "Emotional" and "Intellectual" are different ways of engaging with a text. by virtue of reading, understanding and thinking about something one will always have both an emotional and intellectual connection to it in different ways. curative and transformative are more about the specific ways in which one deconstructs the text, and while yeah, anyone can do either of those things, people generally tend to lean towards doing one more than the other.

[TC]

pre-existing gendered sterotype

That's a weird thing to read into from my post but okay.

[thorondraco]

this is Danganronpa V3 all over again

I'd argue that. V3 was kind of a fuck you that made all the other games irrelevant with what was canon.

In this case people can't figure out if the canon stuff is the in universe story based quantum physics or traditional non homestuck canon. The fuck yous come from a character who is trying to be the antagonistic force of the story and happens to be one of the two narrators.

[PilotBlackSmith]

V3 was kind of a fuck you that made all the other games irrelevant with what was canon.

you mean the similar way the writers keep saying "nothing is canon" and "make up your own canon lmao" all the time?

the more I read what you guys wrote it more feels like the reason they choose to write the story this way is so they can just write whatever bullshit they want and if anyone dares say anything negative about it, they can just use "its not r e a l l y canon though so why do you even care" and then pretend its the deepest meta shit ever


this isn't fun

[ThePungeonMaster]

Ironic: A thread titled "I hate the whole 'cannon discussion' the series has taken' has turned into a discussion about cannon.
Honestly, even for someone who enjoys this kind of discussion, it has gotten a bit exhausting. The main problem seems to arise from how every reader and every writer has at least a slightly different definition of cannon and how it pertains to the story. We're trying to argue over whether cannon is important or unimportant when we're not even ceritan what it means.
And the main problem of this is: The authors don't even seem to know what it means, tossing around terms like "official fanfiction." It's a paradox really: Either there is a central author that defines cannon or there isn't, and you can't have it both ways. You can't have your cannon and eat it too.
I mean, shit, I would legit enjoy the idea of cannon as a storytelling tool if it was used effectively or with any kind of nuance. But no amount of exposition in story so far has gone any length to give cannon some kind of purpose besides outlawing certain stories from becoming """relevant.""" The intention of the authors seemed to be in the epilogues to say that fanfiction like Theatre of Coolty & other projects like Paradox Space were just as valid as supposedly cannon interpretations, as they can inform one's view of the story just as much as the story itself can. But showing is a much more powerful tool than telling, and what we're being shown by the direction the story is taking that either you're part of the story of Candy and Cannon the authors have constructed, or you can fuck off and hope senpai Hussie notices you enough to get put on the writing team so you can exercise your views within the bonds of what actually matters. If you want to say that every interpretation of Homestuck is to some degree valid, than by that same logic, no stories can be cannon, official, valid.

[egg]

this is Danganronpa V3 all over again

I'd argue that. V3 was kind of a fuck you that made all the other games irrelevant with what was canon.

V3 takes place in a separate universe. I'm not entirely sure why people are saying the other games are devalued - that it was going to be unrelated to Hope's Peak was a point that has been stated waaaay before any proper gameplay trailers even came out.

[thorondraco]

Ironic: A thread titled "I hate the whole 'cannon discussion' the series has taken' has turned into a discussion about cannon.
Honestly, even for someone who enjoys this kind of discussion, it has gotten a bit exhausting. The main problem seems to arise from how every reader and every writer has at least a slightly different definition of cannon and how it pertains to the story. We're trying to argue over whether cannon is important or unimportant when we're not even ceritan what it means.
And the main problem of this is: The authors don't even seem to know what it means, tossing around terms like "official fanfiction." It's a paradox really: Either there is a central author that defines cannon or there isn't, and you can't have it both ways. You can't have your cannon and eat it too.
I mean, shit, I would legit enjoy the idea of cannon as a storytelling tool if it was used effectively or with any kind of nuance. But no amount of exposition in story so far has gone any length to give cannon some kind of purpose besides outlawing certain stories from becoming """relevant.""" The intention of the authors seemed to be in the epilogues to say that fanfiction like Theatre of Coolty & other projects like Paradox Space were just as valid as supposedly cannon interpretations, as they can inform one's view of the story just as much as the story itself can. But showing is a much more powerful tool than telling, and what we're being shown by the direction the story is taking that either you're part of the story of Candy and Cannon the authors have constructed, or you can fuck off and hope senpai Hussie notices you enough to get put on the writing team so you can exercise your views within the bonds of what actually matters. If you want to say that every interpretation of Homestuck is to some degree valid, than by that same logic, no stories can be cannon, official, valid.

That is part of why they call it a fanine. They know they are just a bunch of shmucks hussie hired on to make homestuck, and part of the reason is because they are fans. Being rather pretentious also comes with the territory, but I think people are more tolerant of Hussie doing it cause he is the original source of it all, and we can be certain the pretension is ironic.

Also a major point is that, there isn't a central Author in universe making it canon. We have Dirk and we have Calliope. Far as we know by the end of the day we'll have like, 4 people fighting over Canon. The freaking Mspa reader from Pesterquest comes in and starts throwing his weight around.

[PilotBlackSmith]

Ironic: A thread titled "I hate the whole 'cannon discussion' the series has taken' has turned into a discussion about cannon.

I don't really hate "canon" discussion but I hate the DIRECTION the series has taken into that discussion, its not that I hate the theme, its that I hate the content, execution and handling
though I think you did understand my opinion and I'm glad you somewhat agree that the HS^2 writing team isn't really handling this whole meta stuff correctly