Jane choices in the epilogue and Jane in general

[Wing]

Made this thread so people can discuss Jane controversy and discourse that happened in the epilogues.

[furrylatula]

It's not xenophobic though!!! It's just the facts! I've made my case about the planets a dozen times and I don't know how else to say it. No one tried to make a good argument to Jane, they just denounced her as being xenophobic and declared war on her. No one was willing to give an alternative to the real threat that human and troll balance would be entirely skewed and the epilogues were what threw out the easy solution of making more planets but since that was never mentioned it, like the sprites, seem to be completely forgotten about and so Jane had to make do with the only solution that was available to ensure the closet thing to fairness possible given the circumstances: population control.

She's not being irrational and evil, she's the only one who's thinking for a goddamn second about the consequences of just mixing two entirely different species are and is trying to find the best solution. Everyone else is just too nice that they plug their ears and won't notice a thing even after trolls outnumber humans 100:1

ok but.......why is that a threat? why is there anything wrong with a certain species peacefully outnumbering another species?

moving this over, please reply in here and not in the poor hs^2 thread

[RoyalFiddle]

Thank you Wing!

[Wing]

No problem!
I think it's a discussion worth having

[JakeMorph]

following on from what furrylatula says, which is ultimately the crux of the matter: nobody's trying to dispute jane on the idea that trolls will reproduce faster because that's not the problem. it literally doesn't matter if one race outnumbers the other. what becomes a problem is when the majority puts their interests first and subjugates the minority in the process, which is literally what jane does, suggesting that as a hypocrite she is perhaps not the most logically sound of the characters in the epilogues, and perhaps even more importantly, that maybe she is just interested in having her race maintain a majority so she can keep the power she has??

[dualfallen]

It's not xenophobic though!!! It's just the facts! I've made my case about the planets a dozen times and I don't know how else to say it. No one tried to make a good argument to Jane, they just denounced her as being xenophobic and declared war on her. No one was willing to give an alternative to the real threat that human and troll balance would be entirely skewed and the epilogues were what threw out the easy solution of making more planets but since that was never mentioned it, like the sprites, seem to be completely forgotten about and so Jane had to make do with the only solution that was available to ensure the closet thing to fairness possible given the circumstances: population control.

She's not being irrational and evil, she's the only one who's thinking for a goddamn second about the consequences of just mixing two entirely different species are and is trying to find the best solution. Everyone else is just too nice that they plug their ears and won't notice a thing even after trolls outnumber humans 100:1

ok but.......why is that a threat? why is there anything wrong with a certain species peacefully outnumbering another species?

Because then humans wouldn't get the representation they deserve. With them grossly outnumbered, even assuming these trolls are saints and wouldn't oppress the humans anymore than other humans would (which Jane has legitimate experience for why she wouldn't particularly trust them), humans would still become an extreme minority and them and their culture would become completely drowned out by that of the troll's. Don't humans have a right to be able to be equal with trolls when it comes to that or should their concerns be completely ignored in favor of the trolls because that's how it would be. If nothing is done, the trolls will naturally become much more elevated in society than humans at the very least (assuming that tensions don't break out because trolls factually a little more controlling and violent than humans).

following on from what furrylatula says, which is ultimately the crux of the matter: nobody's trying to dispute jane on the idea that trolls will reproduce faster because that's not the problem. it literally doesn't matter if one race outnumbers the other. what becomes a problem is when the majority puts their interests first and subjugates the minority in the process, which is literally what jane does, suggesting that as a hypocrite she is perhaps not the most logically sound of the characters in the epilogues, and perhaps even more importantly, that maybe she is just interested in having her race maintain a majority so she can keep the power she has??

Yes I'll admit, Candy Jane took it too far and pushed too many restrictions on trolls. If she didn't do anything, though, the situation would eventually be flipped. We can't guarantee it'd be as violent towards the humans if trolls were allowed to eventually far exceed the number of humans but my point is that with no action being taken, which is what everyone except Jane advocated for, the humans would end up suffering because no action does not create equality in this situation.

[RoyalFiddle]

Except Jane is one of the post scratch kids who didn't feel the oppression of the )(IC, that was Roxy and Dirk, and both of them think Jane's in the wrong.

[JakeMorph]

history has a hundred examples of incredibly small minorities maintaining their own cultures for thousands of years despite being surrounded by much larger minorities. there are also plenty of historical examples of minorities being over-represented in comparison to the majorities...which is actually exactly how it was on alternia! neither the real world nor the actual comic we're talking about mirror what you're saying.

[dualfallen]

Except Jane is one of the post scratch kids who didn't feel the oppression of the )(IC, that was Roxy and Dirk, and both of them think Jane's in the wrong.

Jane has been brainwashed since she was a child by the )(IC. I'd say she has valid reason to not feel particularly strongly towards them and one could theorize that it was that brainwashing that subconsciously led her to this state in the first place.

[RoyalFiddle]

Except Jane is one of the post scratch kids who didn't feel the oppression of the )(IC, that was Roxy and Dirk, and both of them think Jane's in the wrong.

Jane has been brainwashed since she was a child by the )(IC. I'd say she has valid reason to not feel particularly strongly towards them and one could theorize that it was that brainwashing that subconsciously led her to this state in the first place.

So what you are saying is that the reason Jane took action to control the Troll population is because of brainwashing from a Dictator of a Troll population that regulated how often Trolls were allowed to reproduce?

[furrylatula]

Because then humans wouldn't get the representation they deserve. With them grossly outnumbered, even assuming these trolls are saints and wouldn't oppress the humans anymore than other humans would (which Jane has legitimate experience for why she wouldn't particularly trust them), humans would still become an extreme minority and them and their culture would become completely drowned out by that of the troll's. Don't humans have a right to be able to be equal with trolls when it comes to that or should their concerns be completely ignored in favor of the trolls because that's how it would be. If nothing is done, the trolls will naturally become much more elevated in society than humans at the very least (assuming that tensions don't break out because trolls factually a little more controlling and violent than humans).

there are frequent examples both in homestuck and in real life history in which minorities did not assimilate and in fact gained political power over the majority. there are frequent examples in which the opposite happens, too! turns out oppression dynamics are based more on using fear and us-vs-them mentality to consolidate power over a certain group than just 'which one has more people'.

the earth c trolls have shown zero evidence of overrepresentation (and are actually severely underrepresented by their gods. 3 trolls to 8 humans), zero evidence of violence or controlling tendencies, zero evidence of any wrongdoing towards each other or humans.

you know who HAS shown evidence of all those things? jane crocker.

[dualfallen]

Except Jane is one of the post scratch kids who didn't feel the oppression of the )(IC, that was Roxy and Dirk, and both of them think Jane's in the wrong.

Jane has been brainwashed since she was a child by the )(IC. I'd say she has valid reason to not feel particularly strongly towards them and one could theorize that it was that brainwashing that subconsciously led her to this state in the first place.

So what you are saying is that the reason Jane took action to control the Troll population is because of brainwashing from a Dictator of a Troll population that regulated how often Trolls were allowed to reproduce?

I wouldn't be surprised if she's subtly learned a lot from the Condesce and that's what made the difference between her and her friends. They both even have the same kind of ship showing how )(IC's influence rubbed off on her at least in that regard.

there are frequent examples both in homestuck and in real life history in which minorities did not assimilate and in fact gained political power over the majority. there are frequent examples in which the opposite happens, too! turns out oppression dynamics are based more on using fear and us-vs-them mentality to consolidate power over a certain group than just 'which one has more people'.

the earth c trolls have shown zero evidence of overrepresentation (and are actually severely underrepresented by their gods. 3 trolls to 8 humans), zero evidence of violence or controlling tendencies, zero evidence of any wrongdoing towards each other or humans.

you know who HAS shown evidence of all those things? jane crocker.

The trolls certainly don't overrepresent Earth C yet but that's why Jane was concerned about it as soon as the Mother Grub was ready, as she was thinking about what could happening. Even if there's not any violence, it still wouldn't be particularly great for the humans on the planet to slowly be drowned out more and more as their species fails to keep up. The human gods wouldn't even do anything to stop it since, as most of them have made their point, doing anything is without question xenophobic when it really can't be considered in objective terms like that.

[xeno]

In fact, Dirk and pals have to travel for three years to find the next planet they could go to.

Well this is just outright false. Dirk didn't travel for 3 years to find a planet. He traveled for 3 years to find that planet. There's a pretty major difference there.

[JakeMorph]

"it still wouldn't be great" isn't an incredibly solid argument for establishing breeding control for an entire race.

i also think "jane is doing this because her brain is fucked up from being mind controlled by fascist aliens" and "jane is the only one thinking rationally about any of this" might be contradictory opinions?

[dualfallen]

"it still wouldn't be great" isn't an incredibly solid argument for establishing breeding control for an entire race.

i also think "jane is doing this because her brain is fucked up from being mind controlled by fascist aliens" and "jane is the only one thinking rationally about any of this" might be contradictory opinions?

Yes Jane was mind controlled. Is that what's causing her to feel this way? Probably. Does that make her argument any less valid though? No, it's still just as strong as it was as long as it makes sense (which fears about the wellbeing of their subjects and the future of their domain should be every wise god's priority). Jane believes that "there are certain measures that are, realistically speaking, necessary in order to assure that these opportunities and privileges remain equivalent across the board." and that humans being extremely outnumbered would be worse for equality than keeping the troll population in check. Her argument is fully logical and reasonable, which is honestly more than the opposing side's argument being "i don't care about equality, that's racist!" when it's just a small necessary sacrifice to keep everyone as happy as possible because the alternative would be much worse.

[JakeMorph]

you're doing a really bad job at convincing anyone that 'trolls outnumbering humans' is a bad thing.

[xeno]

humans being extremely outnumbered would be worse for equality than keeping the troll population in check. Her argument is fully logical and reasonable, which is honestly more than the opposing side's argument being "i don't care about equality, that's racist!" when it's just a small necessary sacrifice to keep everyone as happy as possible because the alternative would be much worse.

There isn't really any evidence that trolls would end up outnumbering humans, especially since they haven't since the time skip in the credits that everyone (including me) seems to forget about. It doesn't genuinely seem more like bigotry than legitimate concern.

[furrylatula]

The trolls certainly don't overrepresent Earth C yet but that's why Jane was concerned about it as soon as the Mother Grub was ready, as she was thinking about what could happening. Even if there's not any violence, it still wouldn't be particularly great for the humans on the planet to slowly be drowned out more and more as their species fails to keep up. The human gods wouldn't even do anything to stop it since, as most of them have made their point, doing anything is without question xenophobic when it really can't be considered in objective terms like that.

ok im going to approach this as delicately as i can because i am aware that Homestuck Isnt Real but please be aware that jane's ideology in the epilogue is essentially a reskin of real life white supremacy, right down to the reproduction rates. the 14 word slogan of white supremacy is "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

not accusing you of anything but i think the real world context of candy jane needs to be considered here?

[dualfallen]

The trolls certainly don't overrepresent Earth C yet but that's why Jane was concerned about it as soon as the Mother Grub was ready, as she was thinking about what could happening. Even if there's not any violence, it still wouldn't be particularly great for the humans on the planet to slowly be drowned out more and more as their species fails to keep up. The human gods wouldn't even do anything to stop it since, as most of them have made their point, doing anything is without question xenophobic when it really can't be considered in objective terms like that.

ok im going to approach this as delicately as i can because i am aware that Homestuck Isnt Real but please be aware that jane's ideology in the epilogue is essentially a reskin of real life white supremacy, right down to the reproduction rates. the 14 word slogan of white supremacy is "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

not accusing you of anything but i think the real world context of candy jane needs to be considered here?

I'm seeing a lot of people compare this to real-world issues and that's not it at all. White supremacy is absolutely wrong because there's no harm in having diversity of races. This, however, is a completely different species with a reproduction rate and lifespan incomparable to humans. Jane does not deserve to be called "Hitler" because Hitler's actions were unjust while justification is easy to find for Jane's actions because it is an entirely separate issue.

[JakeMorph]

homestuck doesn't exist in a vacuum, though. certain actions and words within the text are intended to act as metaphors for things that happen in real life.

on alternia troll classes are separated biologically, and higher classes are distinguished from lower classes by heightened physical ability and an incredibly prolonged lifespan. this is nothing like the way it is on earth. on alternia, a blueblood can easily stop an attempt on their life by a lowblood with physical strength alone. on earth the only thing stopping a rich person from being defeated by a poor person are an imbalance in resources and the law. even though those two things are basically incomparable in a real life scenario, we're supposed to accept that the two things are equivalent because one thing represents the other thing.

in the same way we're supposed to see highbloods as being classist by subjugating trolls with lesser lifespans, we're supposed to see jane as being racist / xenophobic by subjugating a race that might (operative word!) reproduce at a higher rate.